2013 - AAG 40 League

[nerquen]

@Gamerman01:

At this point here in May, it seems to me 20 game minimum might be appropriate, ±5

I think 20 games is just too high. If you assume players get as many games in May - October as they did till now, then the 20 games minimum would disqualifies 1/2 of the Tier1!!!

For me even 10 games minimum is hard to get now. Joining mid season and with a rate of ~ a game per month I was hoping to get about 6 games by October.

As for the next year I would vote for ELO ranking system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system). It works just great in an online ladder I participate here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtLN1dNc0SyedExSbzMtZjg1WDdLTi0zNy1HMy1wb2c#gid=0
The rules are explained on the right part of the sheet. The trick is that the point gained/lost in a game are tabulated to integers to keep the calculations simple.

ELO is a well tested system and gives more accurate estimate of players’ relative strength than % of games won. It is still easy to implement. It also does not require any artificial threshold on the minimum number of games played as one cannot get artificially high ELO ranking with just couple games played. It is true though that ELO is known to converge slowly and might require 30+ games to have accurate estimate of one’s strength but I am not aware of any other ranking system with faster convergence that is still simple to implement. And in practice even after couple games the ranking is not that inaccurate.

@ Gamerman: Don’t you want to convert your excel sheet to a google doc (as the one linked above)? It would just be more friendly and faster for players to check the update. And I believe it will also be easier for you as you don’t have to upload a file after every update. At last it does not require any installed software to view your rankings.

[Major Major]

@nerquen:

@Gamerman01:

At this point here in May, it seems to me 20 game minimum might be appropriate, ±5

I think 20 games is just too high. If you assume players get as many games in May - October as they did till now, then the 20 games minimum would disqualifies 1/2 of the Tier1!!!

For me even 10 games minimum is hard to get now. Joining mid season and with a rate of ~ a game per month I was hoping to get about 6 games by October.

As for the next year I would vote for ELO ranking system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system). It works just great in an online ladder I participate here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtLN1dNc0SyedExSbzMtZjg1WDdLTi0zNy1HMy1wb2c#gid=0
The rules are explained on the right part of the sheet. The trick is that the point gained/lost in a game are tabulated to integers to keep the calculations simple.

ELO is a well tested system and gives more accurate estimate of players’ relative strength than % of games won. It is still easy to implement. It also does not require any artificial threshold on the minimum number of games played as one cannot get artificially high ELO ranking with just couple games played. It is true though that ELO is known to converge slowly and might require 30+ games to have accurate estimate of one’s strength but I am not aware of any other ranking system with faster convergence that is still simple to implement. And in practice even after couple games the ranking is not that inaccurate.

@ Gamerman: Don’t you want to convert your excel sheet to a google doc (as the one linked above)? It would just be more friendly and faster for players to check the update. And I believe it will also be easier for you as you don’t have to upload a file after every update. At last it does not require any installed software to view your rankings.

The flaws with ELO in this game is that again it doesn’t reward playing more games to qualify for a playoffs.  There needs to be a modifier to encourage play.  ELO also doesn’t work as well in a game that is impacted so much by luck.  If I was a top rated player I would not risk getting diced against the bottom player and then moving below the median.  ELO was designed for a large number of games with little/ no luck.  It is a great idea though, but a modification needs to be made. 
A simple mod (although it sounds complicated…) where you gain a percentage of your opponents points if you win but they lose a smaller %.

I.e; Lets assume a 20% win 5% loss scenario.
Infrastructure has 100 points Stalingradski has 500 points.
Infrastructure somehow wins the match.
Infrastructure has 200 points, Stalingradski has 475 points.
Stalingradski easily wins the match.
Infrastructure now has 95 points, Stalingradski has 520 points

Put this into an automatically adjusting spreadsheet and viola.

[Major Major]

I.e; Lets assume a 20% win 5% loss scenario.
Infrastructure has 100 points Stalingradski has 500 points.
If Infrastructure somehow wins the match.
Infrastructure has 200 points, Stalingradski has 475 points.
Instead Stalingradski easily wins the match.
Infrastructure would have 95 points, Stalingradski now 520 points

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

@nerquen:

@Gamerman01:

At this point here in May, it seems to me 20 game minimum might be appropriate, ±5

I think 20 games is just too high. If you assume players get as many games in May - October as they did till now, then the 20 games minimum would disqualifies 1/2 of the Tier1!!!

For me even 10 games minimum is hard to get now. Joining mid season and with a rate of ~ a game per month I was hoping to get about 6 games by October.

As for the next year I would vote for ELO ranking system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system). It works just great in an online ladder I participate here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtLN1dNc0SyedExSbzMtZjg1WDdLTi0zNy1HMy1wb2c#gid=0
The rules are explained on the right part of the sheet. The trick is that the point gained/lost in a game are tabulated to integers to keep the calculations simple.

ELO is a well tested system and gives more accurate estimate of players’ relative strength than % of games won. It is still easy to implement. It also does not require any artificial threshold on the minimum number of games played as one cannot get artificially high ELO ranking with just couple games played. It is true though that ELO is known to converge slowly and might require 30+ games to have accurate estimate of one’s strength but I am not aware of any other ranking system with faster convergence that is still simple to implement. And in practice even after couple games the ranking is not that inaccurate.

@ Gamerman: Don’t you want to convert your excel sheet to a google doc (as the one linked above)? It would just be more friendly and faster for players to check the update. And I believe it will also be easier for you as you don’t have to upload a file after every update. At last it does not require any installed software to view your rankings.

The flaws with ELO in this game is that again it doesn’t reward playing more games to qualify for a playoffs.  There needs to be a modifier to encourage play.  ELO also doesn’t work as well in a game that is impacted so much by luck.  If I was a top rated player I would not risk getting diced against the bottom player and then moving below the median.  ELO was designed for a large number of games with little/ no luck.  It is a great idea though, but a modification needs to be made. 
A simple mod (although it sounds complicated…) where you gain a percentage of your opponents points if you win but they lose a smaller %.

I.e; Lets assume a 20% win 5% loss scenario.
Infrastructure has 100 points Stalingradski has 500 points.
Infrastructure somehow wins the match.
Infrastructure has 200 points, Stalingradski has 475 points.
Stalingradski easily wins the match.
Infrastructure now has 95 points, Stalingradski has 520 points

Put this into an automatically adjusting spreadsheet and viola.

The ELO system sounds very interesting and sophisticated.  Is there an easy way to implement it?  Ie an automated spreadsheet into which you simply enter wins and losses and the rankings are calculated?

[Major Major]

it could be done with gamermans spreadsheet with several adjustments…

[allweneedislove]

i like the elo rating system. it is great at showing rank against competition.

however, showing rating and determining who qualifies for playoffs can be two different things.
if you want to generate a league with lots of games against diverse opponents elo is not the best system.

if the league wanted to get rid of annual seasons and just have a fluid ratings system to show comparative strength against competition, then elo is near perfect.

the triplea ladder used/uses elo and did a great job of allowing anyone to join the ladder at anytime and have a chance to be highly rated against veterans of many games. the big drawback is it discourages higher ranked players to play against lower ranked players.

assuming we keep the annual league/playoff system and have a goal of trying to create the most robust league then i think using gamerman’s subjective ranking system to determine playoffs works very well if you add a high minimum of games played to qualify. i know that it is not perfectly accurate but it is a very good approximate that shows lots of information and gamerman is willing to donate his time to create and maintain it! gamerman’s rating system also does a good job at promoting many games with the arbitrary tier system, a elo system does not.

if players will not tolerate a subjective system then i recommend using win percentage + bonus points per game played to determine who qualifies for the playoffs. the big problem with this method is it encourages higher skilled opponents to play noncompetitive games against lesser skilled opponents and avoid tougher matches.

if players can stomach a subjective system to determine who qualifies for playoffs, i recommend just using gamerman’s rankings to determine who gets in. this would be my preference.

[Major Major]

why not have two different playoffs?  if anyone doesn’t want to be in the one using gamermans ranking they can opt out.

[Jennifer]

We could have a “Playoffs” and “Junior Playoffs” using a number of games criteria to qualify to be in one or the other.

What could be done (I am not saying WILL, I said COULD) is the following:

• Players have their total number of games tallied.
  ** The top 20% of players based on number of games COULD qualify for the playoffs
  ** The next 40% of players based on number of games COULD qualify for the junior playoffs
  (60% of participants could qualify to play in the playoffs at some level.)

• Players who qualified for playoffs would have a point system of some kind to be determined.
  ** Each player tallies the number of points earned/lost against the opponents they played.
  ** The top 8 of the playoffs threshold would then be selected to play.
  ** The top 8 of the junior playoffs threshold would then be selected to play.

[gamerman01]

@nerquen:

I think 20 games is just too high. If you assume players get as many games in May - October as they did till now, then the 20 games minimum would disqualifies 1/2 of the Tier1!!!

I would point out that I said 20 ±5, so as low as 15, and I also used the shaky word “might” as in “might be appropriate”.  Whatever Jennifer decides goes.  She is very conscientious to making sure no deserving player is left out - don’t worry.

@ Gamerman: Don’t you want to convert your excel sheet to a google doc (as the one linked above)? It would just be more friendly and faster for players to check the update. And I believe it will also be easier for you as you don’t have to upload a file after every update. At last it does not require any installed software to view your rankings.

For everyone else’s benefit - I sent Nerquen a lengthy PM as I am interested in his ideas.
I’m writing now because I do have a concern about switching to a google doc.  My spreadsheet is very big because it shows the results between each set of players.  In Excel, (which is an extremely common almost universal product - who doesn’t have it?) you can zoom in and out so each player can see it how they want.  Also, it includes a lot of information in cell comments that would not be translatable to an internet page…

I just realized the biggest advantage of Excel…
Everyone is free to manipulate and edit the spreadsheet in any way they desire.  I don’t know for sure the capabilities and limitations of a web page display format, and I see the advantages you point out and am interested, but I’m starting to realize in the comparison that Excel spreadsheets have significant advantages also.

Again, thanks for the suggestions and I am still interested as I said in the PM in instructions for converting the spreadsheet to a google doc and displaying on the internet.

:-o Perhaps I will do both - best of both worlds?!

[nerquen]

@Cmdr:

We could have a “Playoffs” and “Junior Playoffs” using a number of games criteria to qualify to be in one or the other.

What could be done (I am not saying WILL, I said COULD) is the following:

• Players have their total number of games tallied.
  ** The top 20% of players based on number of games COULD qualify for the playoffs
  ** The next 40% of players based on number of games COULD qualify for the junior playoffs
  (60% of participants could qualify to play in the playoffs at some level.)

• Players who qualified for playoffs would have a point system of some kind to be determined.
  ** Each player tallies the number of points earned/lost against the opponents they played.
  ** The top 8 of the playoffs threshold would then be selected to play.
  ** The top 8 of the junior playoffs threshold would then be selected to play.

Hmmm… I am not sure I like it much. What is your motivation to separate players to three groups (frequent - top 20%, average - 40%, occasional - bottom 40%) based on the number of games played?

In the suggested system, a very strong player who is just busy with life (or joins a bit late in the season) and thus gets less games than 60% of the ladder would be out of the playoffs automatically.

I believe we want the strongest players compete against each other in the playoffs, does not matter if one plays 50 games a year or 10 games a year.

[nerquen]

What about making the playoff games low luck by default? Meaning unless both opponents agree on regular dice, a playoff game has to be played with low luck dice.

I have not played a low luck game yet, but I believe in a single game playoff match we would like to see the stronger players come victorious as opposed to luckier players.

[gamerman01]

@nerquen:

What about making the playoff games low luck by default? Meaning unless both opponents agree on regular dice, a playoff game has to be played with low luck dice.

I have not played a low luck game yet, but I believe in a single game playoff match we would like to see the stronger players come victorious as opposed to luckier players.

Nerquen,

As you said, you have not played a low luck game before.
If you think about it, a “low luck” game is in fact completely different than a regular dice game.  The strategy and tactics are extremely different.  The cunning and skill that got those players to the playoff game would be of little use to them.

In the words of Boldfresh, which I completely agree with here, low luck is a “bastardization” of the game  :-)

[nerquen]

@Gamerman01:

If you think about it, a “low luck” game is in fact completely different than a regular dice game.  The strategy and tactics are extremely different.  The cunning and skill that got those players to the playoff game would be of little use to them.

thanks, I have not realized that, but probably you are right

[boldfresh]

i have never played a low luck game, but i CRINGE at the
thought.

[Jennifer]

I would like to point out that per the bidding rules established for the league, you MAY bid tactical bombers, strategic bombers, armored units and any other land unit in China.  Unless, of course, I missed something in the rulebook explicitly saying you may not own these units for China.  (I believe the rules say you may not build the units, well, you aren’t you are bidding them into existence.  Not really the same as building them since you did not need an industrial complex to produce them.)

To recap, the rule says:

• You bid for units (represented by bidding for money to spend on units prior to game start), with any extra IPC (up to a maximum of 2 extra) can be used for buying units in the first round of play.
• You may only place units in territories you own at the start of your turn
  OR
• You may only place units in sea zones you start with naval units in at the start of your turn.

Page 10 of the Second Edition Pacific 1940 Rule Book:

At the beginning of the game, China has a United States fighter unit located on the map.  This represents the American volunteer group the Flying Tigers.  This fighter is considered part of the Chinese forces for purposes of movement and combat.  It cannot leave the territories that China is restricted to, even to attack and return.  If it is destroyed, the US player cannot replace this fighter unit for China.

---

In my opinion, this means you can bid American units into China as volunteers that, for the purposes of movement and combat, are considered part of the Chinese forces.

The rules do state that China may only purchase Infantry (with the exception of Artillery if the Burma road is open) but then go one to clearly abolish that rule when justifying a fighter unit for China.  That leads me to believe, as long as the first dice aren’t yet cast, China can bloody well get tanks or more planes or any other unit that meets the criteria for placing your bid.

That explicitly blocks them from putting naval vessels out, which is good since it closes the loophole that Chinese forces may only be in legal Chinese territories and may not leave, even to attack and return.

Thus, I have to say, Chinese Armor, Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bombers, more Fighters, Artillery, or more Infantry are all legal since they are not expressly restricted from Chinese control.  Unless, of course, I missed something, but I reread the 1940 Pacific Rule Book (2nd Edition) before posting this and I see nothing that says China cannot own a tank, they just can’t build a tank and cannot possess an industrial complex.

:P

(Oh, and feel free to use this against Cow.  I’m sure he’d love to have his Japenese attack plans screwed up by the addition of a few Chinese armored units added to the mix. lol.  Sorry, I couldn’t help it, you have your plan posted for all to see, and while I was impressed, I think you missed this aspect.  Be interesting to see if it holds up still.)

[Jennifer]

dang you spell check!  …then go ON… not one.  Sorry.

[gamerman01]

Have fun playing with non-infantry, artillery, or fighter in China with Triple A, since those units don’t exist in Triple A.

However, it is still possible.

You could put an allied tac/bomber/tank or whatever in China, and use edit mode to move it.  To roll for it with Chinese forces, you would just have to roll it manually on the site dice server and then edit for the results.

Inconvenient, but doable.

Now that said, I’m pretty sure the best use of your bid, if it’s going to China, is infantry/artillery or maybe a fighter.  It’s better to put two infantry in Yunnan than a tank in Yunnan or anywhere else, I would think.

[Jennifer]

Yea, you’re probably right on the best use of your bid units, but there’s nothing that I know that explicitly says you cannot bid other ones in.

And yea, that’s another fatal flaw for TripleA in my book. :P  My battlemap has support for those units. lol.

[gamerman01]

I answered your question on the FAQ thread - hope that helps

[Jennifer]

@Gamerman01:

I answered your question on the FAQ thread - hope that helps

Aye.

So, as it currently stands, unless there is some rule that even the great Gamerman does not know about, the following units are legal for bidding in AAG40 SE League:

• Infantry
• Mechanized Infantry
• Artillery
• Armor
• Fighter
• Tactical Bomber
• Strategic Bomber
  Or any combination thereof.

Making it work with TripleA isn’t my concern.  The inhouse dicey does work, and so does Abattlemap both of which are valid alternatives.  Or you can MacGuyver your TripleA as you see fit to make it work.

---

That said, just because you CAN bid those units for China, does not necessarily mean you SHOULD bid those units for China.