2013 - AAG 40 League

[gamerman01]

What would you think if the roles were reversed, Infra?

[allweneedislove]

@Gamerman01:

Re: 13L G40.2 AllWeNeedIsLove vs Gamerman01 (Allies +10)
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 10:19:16 am »
0    Quote
I guess I can do my defense roll

Rolls: 1@2 2@3; Total Hits: 1
1@2: (1)2@3: (4, 5)

i do not mind letting my opponent roll the dice.

and i assume gamerman is the same as he rolled for my in one of our games.

but i like gamerman’s theory, if you would be upset if your opponent rolled for you, then you should not roll for others.

i hope bold and infrastructure come to an agreement without any animosity, as we are all here to have fun.

[DizzKneeLand33]

I like my rule better, as it’s simple, clearcut, and without controversy.  :)

Seriously, when would a defensive roll ever intentionally be rolled by the defender?  If it’s the attacker’s roll, it counts, if it comes from anywhere else, it doesn’t.

Wouldn’t that lead to a lot less issues overall?  Otherwise, look at the can of worms you would have if both somehow ended up rolling simultaneously through the battle.  Who’s results would be right then?

[Major Major]

I honestly would have taken the result either way.  
In the past when I have played older versions of AnA (revised mostly) with dice servers the rules for the league I was in (AAMC) were always use the dice on the server unless there is a mistake made and then use the dice on the server up to the point where the mistake was made and then reroll from that point.  That was so long ago it was pre-triplea…  
I did upload and post the map after the roll was made and apologized.  I was mostly curious how it should be handled, having not seen anything like it on this server.  
We do not have a current league judge or president or whatever?  
I don’t need to argue or want to cause a scene and Boldfresh hasn’t been uber-negative about it.

[boldfresh]

@allweneedislove:

using common sense the rolls should stand. it does not matter which player rolls the dice it is all random.

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

this is just my opinion, i am not a league moderator and have no influence or bias as to the game results.

to clarify, i simply asked infrastructure why on earth he rolled the defense dice, and whether he is saying it is a valid roll.  there are many issues to consider, and as usual gamer has enumerated them precisely.  i do not know whether if infra had rolled and gotten 1 hit, the post would have been “oops - misclicked, sorry bout that, sure hope the dice go better when you roll the real battle”…  i am not saying you would ever SAY such a thing infra, just don’t know and was a little frustrated for several reasons.
1.  that the issue even came up, thereby creating a complication in a game that has otherwise been great so far
2.  i happened to see the post about your roll while on my way to a big meeting so was frustrated to find something happening that i wasn’t expecting
3.  that infra was apparently presuming that the dice were going to stand, without even asking how we should handle it.  i’m all for two players having a straightforward discussion.  for  example infra could state something like "i’m so sorry, i just accidentally clicked

i guess in short the frustration comes down to one simple fact - that infra has apparently presumed some things and i do not like to have things proceed under presumption.  first of all, i am not angry or upset, i was merely caught off guard by the roll, and then by the presumption that the dice should of course count (“technically they were my dice” was a quote for example).  i think it should be clear from the discussion you have seen here so far infra, that this is certainly not a cut and dried issue and since you made the move outside the norm, i would think the classy way to proceed would be to present your reasoning and ask me what I think the best way to handle the situation would be, even before taking it to a forum for discussion/vote/whatever.

so i am not angry and i am not saying the dice you rolled shouldn’t stand.  so far all i have done is asked you to kindly not roll dice for me, then ask you why you did it and whether you considered the dice to be valid (didn’t want to presume, even though it would seem you were pretty clearly indicating such).

[boldfresh]

what if i had happened to roll the defense the very same moment as infra’s misclick and my defense was 1 hit for infra.  or how about 15 hits?  :-o

part of the issue is that infra is saying the dice were rolled accidentally…  so this of course begs the question, is an accidental roll a valid roll?

i’m going to give an example that is not directly relevant, but just to illustrate the point further.  what if i intended to open my map in local to run a couple practice runs before going live, then by mistake had opened it in PBEM and rolled live dice…  i have had this happen before.  should these dice be considered valid?  i’ve done it before where i did the combat moves for only a couple of battles, just to mess around and see how they rolled out, and accidentally rolled live dice.

if i did something like that and then my next post was “oops, i didn’t know i was rolling live dice, obviously, since there are a bunch of other obvious combat moves i would have done if i was intending to roll dice, i will just go ahead and put together my real move and post it”.  how would that fly?

however, if i came to you and said “hey, totally screwed up, thought i was rolling in local but i was actually rolling marti dice, let’s talk about it” then of course you’d be willing to hear what happened and consider it on it’s merits.  that’s the sort of response i would have appreciated.

cheers, really appreciate the community of players here, and let’s continue to be respectful and have fun.  there are only a few bad apples in the barrel, like COW  :-P  jk cow

[Major Major]

Hey Boldfresh.
I see where you are coming from.  I kinda reacted to your reaction when I said technically they were my dice.  I did apologize in my original email explaining that I rolled.  In your example above I would have assumed that the dice would have stood in your game you thought was local, because dice to the server are done deals in my head, unless I had rolled them somehow without choosing losses first…
As i stated before, I was in a league once where I’m pretty definite they would have gone with the dice I rolled.  This is NOT that league and I had hoped to get a quick answer from a judge or president or maybe even a moderator.  I am still relatively new (a dozen games or so now…) to triplea format.  I see both sides of the arguement and would feel weird in your position. 
If there is no official to make decisions in this league, I will let you decide.
I also move that we set up some kind of governing group or individual to help with future questions in this league!

[Stalingradski]

My thoughts, for what they’re worth:

First, a disclaimer - I’ve known Infrastructure (though I call him by a different name  :-)) for a long time. We’ve been playing A&A together since the early Xeno days. We’re both relatively new to this format - both forum and platform, however.

I see this as two completely defensible positions, and I’ll try to keep it succinct…

1. In a court of law, the dice rolls would stand. They were rolled within the rules of the platform, were time and date stamped, etc.

2. In the very real day to day culture of this site, attackers roll all the dice. It’s just the way it is. And for game play expediency, it is the way it should be.

My opinion is that the culture of the site matters more, and should be adhered to, as the dominant paradigm.

By the way, you all don’t know him all that well, but Infrastructure is one of the best, and most honest people I know. His questions come from a desire to know what is ok and not ok here, with this gaming group.

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

Hey Boldfresh.
I see where you are coming from.  I kinda reacted to your reaction when I said technically they were my dice.  I did apologize in my original email explaining that I rolled.  In your example above I would have assumed that the dice would have stood in your game you thought was local, because dice to the server are done deals in my head, unless I had rolled them somehow without choosing losses first…
As i stated before, I was in a league once where I’m pretty definite they would have gone with the dice I rolled.  This is NOT that league and I had hoped to get a quick answer from a judge or president or maybe even a moderator.  I am still relatively new (a dozen games or so now…) to triplea format.  I see both sides of the arguement and would feel weird in your position. 
If there is no official to make decisions in this league, I will let you decide.
I also move that we set up some kind of governing group or individual to help with future questions in this league!

the 11 hits will stand.  let’s just agree that from now on the attacker rolls the dice and that if the defender rolls, for whatever reason, it is not a valid roll.

[gamerman01]

@ Allweneed

Yes, I think defenders have a right to roll their own defense in an ABattlemap game.  It’s a different situation - the dice are right there on the game thread and can be rolled directly to the forum.

You don’t normally have the defender rolling the dice in a TripleA game, because you’d have to be handing the file back and forth.

[boldfresh]

@Gamerman01:

@ Allweneed

Yes, I think defenders have a right to roll their own defense in an ABattlemap game.  It’s a different situation - the dice are right there on the game thread and can be rolled directly to the forum.

You don’t normally have the defender rolling the dice in a TripleA game, because you’d have to be handing the file back and forth.

yes it is a hassle to have to download the map, close, reload, then continue.  but that’s a secondary issue.  :-)

[gamerman01]

I’m just saying -

the fact that I think it’s fine for defenders to roll in forum ABattlemap games doesn’t apply to TripleA games

apples and oranges

[Major Major]

Thanks to everyone for their input.  Thanks to Boldfreah for making the hard decision.  Should it be added to league rules that all combat diced are to be rolled by the attacker?

[gamerman01]

@Infrastructure:

Should it be added to league rules that all combat diced are to be rolled by the attacker?

No, people just need to have the good sense to not do it.  Again, this is the first I’ve ever heard or encountered it - the vast majority of players don’t even THINK about doing it!  :lol:

League rules are already long and don’t include a lot of things that are more important than that, IMO  :-)

Oh, by the way, you didn’t seem to know who was in charge.

Commander Jennifer is doing the G40 league this year, and I’ve seen neither hide nor hair of her in weeks.
And no one has responded to the myriad of questions/comments/suggestions on this thread.

I think we’re operating without anyone actively in charge, here…  :|

[gamerman01]

Wendy!!!  The lost boys neeeeeed you!

[boldfresh]

I nominate gamerman to adjudicate the g40 league.

[DizzKneeLand33]

I second that nomination.  :)

I really think it should be a rule – whenever something like that happens, nip it in the bud.  That being said, are we allowed to declare that only attacker rolls count in our pregame post and have it stand so that situations like the above can be avoided?  If so, that solves the problem.

[gamerman01]

Absolutely, it would be a good idea to type up a standard pre-game post and copy/paste it each time you play a game.  Is a good idea to communicate your expectations on certain things up front.  I’ll have to work on that myself, soon

Biggest one for me, is the policy on doing things out of turn, especially with the USA/China/UK move.  But there are other things, too.  Best to just type up a standard policy to prevent disagreements in game…

[Eqqman]

@Boldfresh:

I nominate gamerman to adjudicate the g40 league.

@DizzKneeLand33:

I second that nomination.  :)

I’m willing to go on record to oppose such a nomination.  While I greatly respect and appreciate Gamerman’s efforts behind keeping an up-to-date unofficial rankings list, I don’t think his interactions with other forum members have been amicable enough to warrant elevation to a position of authority.  This will probably come across as personal, but it isn’t, you only need to read through the flame war in the Pointlessly Broken Pacific `40 thread to see one example of what I’m talking about.

This discussion does bring up the fact that these boards are basically un-moderated and have been for some time, Jen is merely the last to disappear.  I don’t think I’ve seen any posts from the others at all in 2013; only JWW seems to be left.  I’ve tried to PM Jensen in the past to get somebody to step into threads that have been getting way out of hand, but haven’t had any response from him either.

[gamerman01]

Egg, they weren’t serious, jeez.  That’s not how moderators are picked.

No, I am not nice enough to be a moderator.  I do not always respond well to dicks