2013 - AAG 40 League

[gamerman01]

Yep - any time

[Major Major]

League question???

OK.  Boldfresh sent me the map after a german attack.  I was looking at casulaties and sent him an email with them.  I had several games open and accidentally clicked on that game and rolled my defense a little later.  The dice went to marti and he had not continued the game yet from my losses response, do we count them or ignore them?
I consider dice rolls, dice rolls and if we were playing face to face they would have been my dice to roll, but this platform dictates smoother play by having the attacker roll all dice.
Boldfresh disagrees.
I do not wish to make this a big issue, but I wonder if there is precedence or clarification available?

[allweneedislove]

using common sense the rolls should stand. it does not matter which player rolls the dice it is all random.

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

this is just my opinion, i am not a league moderator and have no influence or bias as to the game results.

[gamerman01]

Here’s the problem I see with your situation as you have presented it.

If your dice were poor, would you have insisted that they count?  Or would you have said it was an accident?

Did you only roll your defense and then stop rolling?  Did you upload the map after your rolls?

I think you’re going to need a moderator for that one, and I haven’t seen any sign of Jenn in quite a while.
I have never encountered anyone who rolled their own defense in Triple A.  If you roll your own defense, I would think that you should then upload your map, as you have continued the game to a new point.

I don’t know all the circumstances and haven’t seen Bold’s argument.  I’m not going to give an opinion on it.  I just think the above questions are considerations, and that a league moderator (or THE league moderator?) should decide.

[Eqqman]

@allweneedislove:

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

If this is the exact situation at hand, then that is exactly what I would say myself- every player needs to roll their own dice.  It is absolutely true that from a probability standpoint it makes no difference, but the player needs to feel like they had some control over their fate.

I’m trying to imagine somebody in a tabletop game rolling dice for me because they thought my process was too slow.  Needless to say the probability argument isn’t going to go over too well.

[Eqqman]

LOL- I should have followed the forum’s advice and read the post that was posted while I was typing.  What I said doesn’t apply if a player is taking their own turn in an online game- in that case the normal process doesn’t have the defender make their own rolls.  What would be weird is if for example I asked a player for their scramble orders and then instead of just telling me they went ahead and did my own rolls on the attack.  In that case I certainly would want to make my own rolls- with the actual affect on probability again not being the issue.

[gamerman01]

@infrastructure:

technically they were my dice.  The other person rolls in this format for normal ease of game flow.  If I had rolled horribly would the roll have counted? I did not do the rolling on purpose either, but had multiple games open, so do not get angry.  As I have never seen this happen before, I’ll ask someone to judicate.

I put one sentence in bold.  That is the million dollar question.  Since you’re asking it, I don’t think you even know the answer to it.

If this is the first time you rolled the dice for your own defense in Triple A, and by your own admission in game it was an “oops”, I would suggest that you either:

1. re-roll from the save like Bold would want, or
2. take a low-luck result and roll it out on the forum from there

That is, add up the combat value, divide by 6, and roll 1 die for any remainder.

If you 2 can agree to a solution, you won’t need a judge.

I have one more suggestion for a compromise:
Do 1) and 2) and take the better roll of the 2, but not to be better than the accidental roll.

[DizzKneeLand33]

What my official ruling would be (so take it for what it’s worth):

The attacker rolls the dice in TripleA PBF format.  Period.  Always.  End of story.  It really is that simple.  Any other rolls are null and void.

[gamerman01]

What would you think if the roles were reversed, Infra?

[allweneedislove]

@Gamerman01:

Re: 13L G40.2 AllWeNeedIsLove vs Gamerman01 (Allies +10)
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 10:19:16 am »
0    Quote
I guess I can do my defense roll

Rolls: 1@2 2@3; Total Hits: 1
1@2: (1)2@3: (4, 5)

i do not mind letting my opponent roll the dice.

and i assume gamerman is the same as he rolled for my in one of our games.

but i like gamerman’s theory, if you would be upset if your opponent rolled for you, then you should not roll for others.

i hope bold and infrastructure come to an agreement without any animosity, as we are all here to have fun.

[DizzKneeLand33]

I like my rule better, as it’s simple, clearcut, and without controversy.  :)

Seriously, when would a defensive roll ever intentionally be rolled by the defender?  If it’s the attacker’s roll, it counts, if it comes from anywhere else, it doesn’t.

Wouldn’t that lead to a lot less issues overall?  Otherwise, look at the can of worms you would have if both somehow ended up rolling simultaneously through the battle.  Who’s results would be right then?

[Major Major]

I honestly would have taken the result either way.  
In the past when I have played older versions of AnA (revised mostly) with dice servers the rules for the league I was in (AAMC) were always use the dice on the server unless there is a mistake made and then use the dice on the server up to the point where the mistake was made and then reroll from that point.  That was so long ago it was pre-triplea…  
I did upload and post the map after the roll was made and apologized.  I was mostly curious how it should be handled, having not seen anything like it on this server.  
We do not have a current league judge or president or whatever?  
I don’t need to argue or want to cause a scene and Boldfresh hasn’t been uber-negative about it.

[boldfresh]

@allweneedislove:

using common sense the rolls should stand. it does not matter which player rolls the dice it is all random.

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

this is just my opinion, i am not a league moderator and have no influence or bias as to the game results.

to clarify, i simply asked infrastructure why on earth he rolled the defense dice, and whether he is saying it is a valid roll.  there are many issues to consider, and as usual gamer has enumerated them precisely.  i do not know whether if infra had rolled and gotten 1 hit, the post would have been “oops - misclicked, sorry bout that, sure hope the dice go better when you roll the real battle”…  i am not saying you would ever SAY such a thing infra, just don’t know and was a little frustrated for several reasons.
1.  that the issue even came up, thereby creating a complication in a game that has otherwise been great so far
2.  i happened to see the post about your roll while on my way to a big meeting so was frustrated to find something happening that i wasn’t expecting
3.  that infra was apparently presuming that the dice were going to stand, without even asking how we should handle it.  i’m all for two players having a straightforward discussion.  for  example infra could state something like "i’m so sorry, i just accidentally clicked

i guess in short the frustration comes down to one simple fact - that infra has apparently presumed some things and i do not like to have things proceed under presumption.  first of all, i am not angry or upset, i was merely caught off guard by the roll, and then by the presumption that the dice should of course count (“technically they were my dice” was a quote for example).  i think it should be clear from the discussion you have seen here so far infra, that this is certainly not a cut and dried issue and since you made the move outside the norm, i would think the classy way to proceed would be to present your reasoning and ask me what I think the best way to handle the situation would be, even before taking it to a forum for discussion/vote/whatever.

so i am not angry and i am not saying the dice you rolled shouldn’t stand.  so far all i have done is asked you to kindly not roll dice for me, then ask you why you did it and whether you considered the dice to be valid (didn’t want to presume, even though it would seem you were pretty clearly indicating such).

[boldfresh]

what if i had happened to roll the defense the very same moment as infra’s misclick and my defense was 1 hit for infra.  or how about 15 hits?  :-o

part of the issue is that infra is saying the dice were rolled accidentally…  so this of course begs the question, is an accidental roll a valid roll?

i’m going to give an example that is not directly relevant, but just to illustrate the point further.  what if i intended to open my map in local to run a couple practice runs before going live, then by mistake had opened it in PBEM and rolled live dice…  i have had this happen before.  should these dice be considered valid?  i’ve done it before where i did the combat moves for only a couple of battles, just to mess around and see how they rolled out, and accidentally rolled live dice.

if i did something like that and then my next post was “oops, i didn’t know i was rolling live dice, obviously, since there are a bunch of other obvious combat moves i would have done if i was intending to roll dice, i will just go ahead and put together my real move and post it”.  how would that fly?

however, if i came to you and said “hey, totally screwed up, thought i was rolling in local but i was actually rolling marti dice, let’s talk about it” then of course you’d be willing to hear what happened and consider it on it’s merits.  that’s the sort of response i would have appreciated.

cheers, really appreciate the community of players here, and let’s continue to be respectful and have fun.  there are only a few bad apples in the barrel, like COW  :-P  jk cow

[Major Major]

Hey Boldfresh.
I see where you are coming from.  I kinda reacted to your reaction when I said technically they were my dice.  I did apologize in my original email explaining that I rolled.  In your example above I would have assumed that the dice would have stood in your game you thought was local, because dice to the server are done deals in my head, unless I had rolled them somehow without choosing losses first…
As i stated before, I was in a league once where I’m pretty definite they would have gone with the dice I rolled.  This is NOT that league and I had hoped to get a quick answer from a judge or president or maybe even a moderator.  I am still relatively new (a dozen games or so now…) to triplea format.  I see both sides of the arguement and would feel weird in your position. 
If there is no official to make decisions in this league, I will let you decide.
I also move that we set up some kind of governing group or individual to help with future questions in this league!

[Stalingradski]

My thoughts, for what they’re worth:

First, a disclaimer - I’ve known Infrastructure (though I call him by a different name  :-)) for a long time. We’ve been playing A&A together since the early Xeno days. We’re both relatively new to this format - both forum and platform, however.

I see this as two completely defensible positions, and I’ll try to keep it succinct…

1. In a court of law, the dice rolls would stand. They were rolled within the rules of the platform, were time and date stamped, etc.

2. In the very real day to day culture of this site, attackers roll all the dice. It’s just the way it is. And for game play expediency, it is the way it should be.

My opinion is that the culture of the site matters more, and should be adhered to, as the dominant paradigm.

By the way, you all don’t know him all that well, but Infrastructure is one of the best, and most honest people I know. His questions come from a desire to know what is ok and not ok here, with this gaming group.

[boldfresh]

@Infrastructure:

Hey Boldfresh.
I see where you are coming from.  I kinda reacted to your reaction when I said technically they were my dice.  I did apologize in my original email explaining that I rolled.  In your example above I would have assumed that the dice would have stood in your game you thought was local, because dice to the server are done deals in my head, unless I had rolled them somehow without choosing losses first…
As i stated before, I was in a league once where I’m pretty definite they would have gone with the dice I rolled.  This is NOT that league and I had hoped to get a quick answer from a judge or president or maybe even a moderator.  I am still relatively new (a dozen games or so now…) to triplea format.  I see both sides of the arguement and would feel weird in your position. 
If there is no official to make decisions in this league, I will let you decide.
I also move that we set up some kind of governing group or individual to help with future questions in this league!

the 11 hits will stand.  let’s just agree that from now on the attacker rolls the dice and that if the defender rolls, for whatever reason, it is not a valid roll.

[gamerman01]

@ Allweneed

Yes, I think defenders have a right to roll their own defense in an ABattlemap game.  It’s a different situation - the dice are right there on the game thread and can be rolled directly to the forum.

You don’t normally have the defender rolling the dice in a TripleA game, because you’d have to be handing the file back and forth.

[boldfresh]

@Gamerman01:

@ Allweneed

Yes, I think defenders have a right to roll their own defense in an ABattlemap game.  It’s a different situation - the dice are right there on the game thread and can be rolled directly to the forum.

You don’t normally have the defender rolling the dice in a TripleA game, because you’d have to be handing the file back and forth.

yes it is a hassle to have to download the map, close, reload, then continue.  but that’s a secondary issue.  :-)

[gamerman01]

I’m just saying -

the fact that I think it’s fine for defenders to roll in forum ABattlemap games doesn’t apply to TripleA games

apples and oranges