2013 - AAG 40 League

[DizzKneeLand33]

Hey, don’t forget about Dizz on that “multiclub” list…. I know it’s still tax season, and I’ve started back playing tournament chess, but I’m lurking… ;)

Okay, so, 1 game between the top two at this point is ludicrous with all of the activity here.  Gamer, I know that players for the most part don’t play just to win the league.  However, there is always that element (I’m usually in it) that likes to have the chance to play the best of the best by qualifying for something cool, something important, something league championship oriented…

So, here is my off-the-cuff solution.  Remember, I’ve been running the “tournament” thing for over 23 years now, so I hope at least everyone can humor me.

Someone mentioned a 6-player round robin final.  That is a really interesting idea.  I think the problem is the number of games that players would be playing at once.  So, how about we modify that?  Why not two 4-player round robin semifinals and a 4-player final?  The only chance where a tiebreak would be needed (other than head-to-head) would be if 3 of the 4 players went 2-1 and the 4th 0-3.  Well, somebody can figure out a tiebreak for that.  So, 8 players qualify, and the top 2 in each round-robin semifinal make the finals.  3 games to play at once.  Certainly not an overload.  And, this allows more players to qualify while still allowing the cream to rise to the top.

In that scenario, my goal would be to make the playoffs, knowing that I would be probably NOT making the finals.  But, to lose those games honorably would be a very cool experience…

Of course, the number of players could be modified and is certainly worthy of discussion.

Then, the qualification scheme.  Win percentage for FOUR games??  That is statistically cavemanesque.  Anyone interested in a postseason (and remember, not everyone is!) should at least have to play 8 games or something.  Or, you could do this.  If there were 8 qualifying spots, perhaps allow 2 in on the rules already set out regarding win percentage, 2 more for total wins overall (THIS factor would certainly increase games played, wouldn’t it? And, isn’t that the point??), and 4 more spots to be divided any way you would see fit (1 for most different opponents beaten, 1 for hottest girlfriend (or boyfriend), etc. etc., or heck, 2 - 4 for top players on Gamer’s list not already qualified for one of the other slots).

Now, that’s a playoff system, isn’t it?  What’s not to like?  :mrgreen:

[Cow]

I had a similar suggestion.  1 most wins, 1 most games, 1 winning streak, 1 win loss ratio %. Have the 4 compete. Round robin sounds fun. If round robin is the thing then we can have 1 highest ranked (gamer has a ranking system so we could implement it).

[Cow]

Yeah that is a good idea. we could have top 4 by ranking and 4 by other categories.

[Cow]

you might have to do brackets. rank 1 vs cat 1, rank 2 vs cat 2, etc. Rankings vs Other style. Then the final 4 could round robin it out.

[gamerman01]

@variance:

If we’re supposed to place bid units only in territories that already have a unit of the same power in it, then how come I hear that some people put an ANZAC infantry in New Guinea?  Is it legal to do that?

It is legal.  You don’t have to have a unit there already.  That’s the way it used to be, but Jenn changed it.

[gamerman01]

@JWW:

4c - Bid Placements - Bids can be placed all in one territory, spread out over multiple territories, or taken in IPCs to one country or split between multiple countries.
Land bids must be placed in a territory which you own at the beginning of the game but are restricted to units of that countries nationality. 
Examples for clarification -
A - UK can bid units to Egy.  Russia/US cannot.
B - UK can bid units to Bor/Sum.  Russia/US cannot.
C - US/UK/Rus cannot bid units to any Chinese territory.  Only Chinese units can be placed there.
Naval Bids must be placed in a seazone which already contains at least one unit and are restricted to that countries nationality.
Examples for clarification -
A - Russia can only bit naval units to sz 4.
B - UK can bid units to sz 12.  Russia/US cannot.
C - US can bid units to sz 50.  Russia/UK cannot.
You can bid for Industrial Complexes.  Placement (of newly purchased units) may take place immediately in the placement phase of Round 1.  The new IC will be limited by the IPC total of the territory on which it is placed and all other standard IC rules apply.

[variance]

OK that makes sense.  Thank you.

[gamerman01]

Yep - any time

[Major Major]

League question???

OK.  Boldfresh sent me the map after a german attack.  I was looking at casulaties and sent him an email with them.  I had several games open and accidentally clicked on that game and rolled my defense a little later.  The dice went to marti and he had not continued the game yet from my losses response, do we count them or ignore them?
I consider dice rolls, dice rolls and if we were playing face to face they would have been my dice to roll, but this platform dictates smoother play by having the attacker roll all dice.
Boldfresh disagrees.
I do not wish to make this a big issue, but I wonder if there is precedence or clarification available?

[allweneedislove]

using common sense the rolls should stand. it does not matter which player rolls the dice it is all random.

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

this is just my opinion, i am not a league moderator and have no influence or bias as to the game results.

[gamerman01]

Here’s the problem I see with your situation as you have presented it.

If your dice were poor, would you have insisted that they count?  Or would you have said it was an accident?

Did you only roll your defense and then stop rolling?  Did you upload the map after your rolls?

I think you’re going to need a moderator for that one, and I haven’t seen any sign of Jenn in quite a while.
I have never encountered anyone who rolled their own defense in Triple A.  If you roll your own defense, I would think that you should then upload your map, as you have continued the game to a new point.

I don’t know all the circumstances and haven’t seen Bold’s argument.  I’m not going to give an opinion on it.  I just think the above questions are considerations, and that a league moderator (or THE league moderator?) should decide.

[Eqqman]

@allweneedislove:

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

If this is the exact situation at hand, then that is exactly what I would say myself- every player needs to roll their own dice.  It is absolutely true that from a probability standpoint it makes no difference, but the player needs to feel like they had some control over their fate.

I’m trying to imagine somebody in a tabletop game rolling dice for me because they thought my process was too slow.  Needless to say the probability argument isn’t going to go over too well.

[Eqqman]

LOL- I should have followed the forum’s advice and read the post that was posted while I was typing.  What I said doesn’t apply if a player is taking their own turn in an online game- in that case the normal process doesn’t have the defender make their own rolls.  What would be weird is if for example I asked a player for their scramble orders and then instead of just telling me they went ahead and did my own rolls on the attack.  In that case I certainly would want to make my own rolls- with the actual affect on probability again not being the issue.

[gamerman01]

@infrastructure:

technically they were my dice.  The other person rolls in this format for normal ease of game flow.  If I had rolled horribly would the roll have counted? I did not do the rolling on purpose either, but had multiple games open, so do not get angry.  As I have never seen this happen before, I’ll ask someone to judicate.

I put one sentence in bold.  That is the million dollar question.  Since you’re asking it, I don’t think you even know the answer to it.

If this is the first time you rolled the dice for your own defense in Triple A, and by your own admission in game it was an “oops”, I would suggest that you either:

1. re-roll from the save like Bold would want, or
2. take a low-luck result and roll it out on the forum from there

That is, add up the combat value, divide by 6, and roll 1 die for any remainder.

If you 2 can agree to a solution, you won’t need a judge.

I have one more suggestion for a compromise:
Do 1) and 2) and take the better roll of the 2, but not to be better than the accidental roll.

[DizzKneeLand33]

What my official ruling would be (so take it for what it’s worth):

The attacker rolls the dice in TripleA PBF format.  Period.  Always.  End of story.  It really is that simple.  Any other rolls are null and void.

[gamerman01]

What would you think if the roles were reversed, Infra?

[allweneedislove]

@Gamerman01:

Re: 13L G40.2 AllWeNeedIsLove vs Gamerman01 (Allies +10)
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2013, 10:19:16 am »
0    Quote
I guess I can do my defense roll

Rolls: 1@2 2@3; Total Hits: 1
1@2: (1)2@3: (4, 5)

i do not mind letting my opponent roll the dice.

and i assume gamerman is the same as he rolled for my in one of our games.

but i like gamerman’s theory, if you would be upset if your opponent rolled for you, then you should not roll for others.

i hope bold and infrastructure come to an agreement without any animosity, as we are all here to have fun.

[DizzKneeLand33]

I like my rule better, as it’s simple, clearcut, and without controversy.  :)

Seriously, when would a defensive roll ever intentionally be rolled by the defender?  If it’s the attacker’s roll, it counts, if it comes from anywhere else, it doesn’t.

Wouldn’t that lead to a lot less issues overall?  Otherwise, look at the can of worms you would have if both somehow ended up rolling simultaneously through the battle.  Who’s results would be right then?

[Major Major]

I honestly would have taken the result either way.  
In the past when I have played older versions of AnA (revised mostly) with dice servers the rules for the league I was in (AAMC) were always use the dice on the server unless there is a mistake made and then use the dice on the server up to the point where the mistake was made and then reroll from that point.  That was so long ago it was pre-triplea…  
I did upload and post the map after the roll was made and apologized.  I was mostly curious how it should be handled, having not seen anything like it on this server.  
We do not have a current league judge or president or whatever?  
I don’t need to argue or want to cause a scene and Boldfresh hasn’t been uber-negative about it.

[boldfresh]

@allweneedislove:

using common sense the rolls should stand. it does not matter which player rolls the dice it is all random.

if someone is foolish enough to think it matters who rolls the dice, i could see them make an argument that the defender should always roll their own dice and the attacker has to wait.

as long as both players order of losses are followed it should not matter who rolls the dice.

this is just my opinion, i am not a league moderator and have no influence or bias as to the game results.

to clarify, i simply asked infrastructure why on earth he rolled the defense dice, and whether he is saying it is a valid roll.  there are many issues to consider, and as usual gamer has enumerated them precisely.  i do not know whether if infra had rolled and gotten 1 hit, the post would have been “oops - misclicked, sorry bout that, sure hope the dice go better when you roll the real battle”…  i am not saying you would ever SAY such a thing infra, just don’t know and was a little frustrated for several reasons.
1.  that the issue even came up, thereby creating a complication in a game that has otherwise been great so far
2.  i happened to see the post about your roll while on my way to a big meeting so was frustrated to find something happening that i wasn’t expecting
3.  that infra was apparently presuming that the dice were going to stand, without even asking how we should handle it.  i’m all for two players having a straightforward discussion.  for  example infra could state something like "i’m so sorry, i just accidentally clicked

i guess in short the frustration comes down to one simple fact - that infra has apparently presumed some things and i do not like to have things proceed under presumption.  first of all, i am not angry or upset, i was merely caught off guard by the roll, and then by the presumption that the dice should of course count (“technically they were my dice” was a quote for example).  i think it should be clear from the discussion you have seen here so far infra, that this is certainly not a cut and dried issue and since you made the move outside the norm, i would think the classy way to proceed would be to present your reasoning and ask me what I think the best way to handle the situation would be, even before taking it to a forum for discussion/vote/whatever.

so i am not angry and i am not saying the dice you rolled shouldn’t stand.  so far all i have done is asked you to kindly not roll dice for me, then ask you why you did it and whether you considered the dice to be valid (didn’t want to presume, even though it would seem you were pretty clearly indicating such).