I should also add that for a “bid”, we give the US “improved shipyards” and that seems to balance things out.
Historically accurate setup
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Hello again, everyone,
Sorry I had to post and run Friday, without any follow-up. So here are a few notes/observations/ideas. If you want to stick with the ratios for BBs that Larry is using, you’d go with 1-5, instead of 1-4. I prefer 1-4 because BBs in most navies operated in 2-ship divisions, with two or more divisions to a squadron. Also, it makes the British fleet large and intimidating, and less likely to be wiped out in a single turn, which goes along with wanting a more historically accurate feel. This can be balanced somewhat by maybe beefing up the Luftwaffe a bit, if that can be justified by a combination of historical numbers cross-referenced with historical quality. Also, by rounding .5 or greater up, the Italians and the Japanese get an extra BB each.
By using historical numbers, the US fleet also gets larger, but it is out of play for the first few turns anyway. Maybe this can be mitigated by a “Pearl Harbor” rule of some sort. Perhaps if Japan declares war on the US, during the first turn US AAA fire is rolled simultaneous with other units, instead of destroying planes before they can get a shot off. Also, on the first round of dice rolling, all US units defend with a 1, reverting to their normal defense values on any subsequent rounds.
Using a historically sized French fleet will require a Vichy rule of some sort. I would say something like the following: Immediately upon the fall of Paris to the Axis, all French naval units in the Mediterranean are converted to Vichy. They neither move, attack, nor block movement of either side. Any surviving French land or air units in Normandy or Southern France are reduced to a single infantry in S. France. German control markers are placed on S. France, Normandy, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Syria. French land units in these areas cannot move or attack. Germany receives all income from these areas. All other French territories and units become Free French, and income from these areas goes into the Free French pool. Free French units can be built at British Factories using this money.
If a Vichy area is attacked by the Allies, roll a die. On a roll of 1-3, all land units in the area and naval units in adjacent sea zones become Free French. On a roll of 4-5, the units surrender and disband/scuttle themselves, and are removed from the map. On a roll of 6, they join the Axis, and are replaced with equivalent German units. If the Axis attack any of these areas, the Vichy treaty is broken, and ALL Vichy areas become Free French, unless captured. If a land territory is captured by the Axis, roll a die for any adjacent naval units. On a roll of 1-3, they escape from port and become Free French. On a roll of 4-5, they are scuttled and removed from play. On a roll of 6, they are captured, and replaced with the equivalent German unit.
I think I like the idea of defenders being allowed to retreat. Maybe at the beginning of each round of combat, starting with the second round, the defender can declare he is going to try to retreat any or all of his units. Any units retreating cannot fire in that round of combat, but any units he left behind as a rear guard can still fire. Casualties can be taken from the rear guard first, but if the attacker gets more hits than there are rear guard units, they must be taken from the retreating units. Now, the net effect will be that fewer units will die each turn. Would this need to be balanced by making units more expensive, in order to keep the map from becoming massively cluttered?
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Germany should be able to steal French boats.
UK should be tempted to shoot the French boats because of this. -
i was thinking of a way to implement vichy france, but gotta do everything step by step
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hey oz are u working on a european setup? or do you want me to do that?
ive been gathering all the #'s to a single spot but i dont know where theyd be placed down at. asking for help seeing as you made a 1941 variant
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Pacific side:
JAPAN
Japan: 2 Infantry, 1 Bomber
Manchuria: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Mechanized, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber
Jehol: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery,1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Bomber
Shantung: 2 Infantry
Kiangsu: 2 Infantry
Kiangsi: 2 Infantry
Kwangsi: 1 Infantry
Siam: 2 Infantry
Sea Zone 6 (off Japan): 3 Battleships, 2 Carriers, 2 Cruisers, 2 Destroyers, 1 Transport, 2 Fighters, 2 Tactical Bombers
Sea Zone 17: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 19: 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 20: 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 22: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 36: 1 Carrier, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Submarine, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical BomberUnited Kingdom
India: 2 Infantry, 1 Tank
Burma: 1 Infantry
Malaya: 2 Infantry
Sea Zone 39 (Ceylon): 1 Cruiser, 2 Destroyers, 2 Transports
Sea Zone 37: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 42: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 43: 1 Destroyer, 1 TransportANZAC
New Guinea: 1 Infantry
Queensland: 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
New South Wales: 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Western Australia: 1 Mechanized
Sea Zone 54: 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 62: 1 TransportDutch
Sea Zone 41: 1 DestroyerCHINA
Chahar: 2 Infantry
Hopei: 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Anhwe: 2 Infantry
Human: 2 Infantry
Yunnan: 3 infantry, 1 FighterUnited States
Western United States: 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1Bomber
Sea Zone 10 (San Diego): 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 12: 1 Carrier, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Fighter, 1 Tactical Bomber
Sea Zone 14: 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 25: 1 Submarine
Hawaii: 1 Infantry, 1 Tactical Bomber,
Sea Zone 26 (Honolulu): 2 Battleships, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Philippines: 1 Infantry
Sea Zone 35: 1 Destroyer, 1 TransportEurope Side:
Germany:
unkown locations: 26 infantry, 5 tanks, 3 mech, 4 artillery, 5 fighters, 2 bombers, 2 tactical bombers, 1 BB, 2 CA, 2 DD, 8 SS, 2 AP
Romania: 5 Infantry, 1 mech, 1 artillery, 1 fighter
Hungary: 5 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 tankItaly:
unkown locations: 15 infantry, 1 tank, 2 mech, 2 artillery, 2 bombers, 2 fighters (1 in Italian East Africa), 1 tactical bomber.
2 BB, 2 CA, 3 DD, 5 SS, 1 APSoviet Union:
unkown locations: 25 infantry, 4 tanks, 4 mech, 5 artillery, 3 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, 1 bomber ( rated Soviets lower due to huge issues on quality and doctrine, but on paper they had the largest air force easily)
1 BB, 3 DD, 7 SS, 2 AP ( on the Manchurian border:6 Infantry, 2 Mech, 2 artillery 1 tanks, 1 fighter)France:
unkown locations: 16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber (air force was not ready and mostly destroyed by June 1940)
2 BB, 2 CA, 3 DD, 3 SS, 1 APUnited Kingdom: Global
unkown locations: (possibly double listed ) 6 infantry, 3 mech, 1 tank, 2 artillery, 2 fighters, 2 bombers, 1 tactical bomber
5 BB, 1 CV, 4 CA, 10 DD, 2 SS, 8 AP
BEF:1 Infantry, 1 mech, 1 artillery
Canada:1 infantry, 1 DD, 1 AP
India:2 infantry, 1 tank
Africa:1 infantry
South Africa:1 Infantryim going to print this out and try and figure out where all these would be located. all help appreciated as i cant find any historical info on where they were located
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I don’t know if this would be useful or not, but I have an old copy of 5th edition World in Flames, and it occurred to me once in a drunken stupor that it could be converted to A&A, since they seemed to be similarly scaled. I started with the Sept. 1939 scenario, and then allowed for likely builds and combat losses through May/June 1940. I took the average printed combat power of units of each type for each nation to get a multiplier, which I then applied to the actual number of units. This more or less accounts for differences in quality, since in A&A, infantry is infantry, regardless of whether it represents Chinese conscripts or the German SS. For naval units, I used the research mentioned in my previous posts. Fighters and tac bombers include naval air. If you are not using an optional rule for paratroops, marines, or air transports, just convert them to regular infantry. This might have to be scaled down if you don’t want cluttered maps, but I’ve given the raw numbers below. So, if you trust the historical research of Australian Design Group:
France:
22 infantry, 1 mech, 4 artillery, 2 tanks, 2 fighters, 1 tac, 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 2 subs, 1 transportGermany:
36 infantry, 4 mech, 1 para, 8 artillery, 9 tanks, 11 fighters, 6 tacs, 2 bombers, 1 air transport, 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, 6 subs, 2 transportsItaly:
11 infantry, 1 mech, 5 artillery, 2 tanks, 4 fighters, 4 tacs, 2 battleships, 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 4 subs, 2 transportsJapan:
32 infantry, 1 mech, 1 marine, 7 artillery, 1 tank, 10 fighters, 9 tacs, 1 bomber, 1 air transport, 3 battleships, 4 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 3 carriers, 2 subs, 4 transportsChina:
22 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighterUSSR:
19 infantry, 2 mech, 1 para, 4 artillery, 6 tanks, 4 fighters, 3 tacs, 1 air transport, 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 4 destroyers, 5 subs, 1 transportCommonwealth (includes both maps plus ANZAC)
24 infantry, 2 mech, 1 para, 4 artillery, 2 tanks, 11 fighters, 5 tacs, 1 bomber, 4 battleships, 7 cruisers, 12 destroyers, 2 carriers, 2 subs, 5 transportsUSA:
7 infantry, 1 mech, 1 marine, 2 artillery, 1 tank, 7 fighters, 6 tacs, 1 air transport, 4 battleships, 4 cruisers, 7 destroyers, 2 carriers, 3 subs, 4 transportsOptional rules:
Air transports: // Cost 6 / Move 4 / Attack 0 / Defense 0 // Can airlift one infantry or para during non-combat movement. Can airdrop one para during combat movement. If AA guns are present, must first survive AA fire, or both the air transport and para are lost.
Paratroops: // Cost 5 / Move 1 / Attack 1 (2) / Defense 2 // Can be dropped on enemy territory during combat movement by an air transport. Attack with a 2 on the first round of combat, and revert to an attack of 1 if the combat lasts more than one round.
Marines: // Cost 5 / Move 1 / Attack 1 (2) / Defense 2 // Function as regular infantry in all ways, except they attack with a 2 during amphibious landings. Unlike paratroops, they retain this attack value until the amphibious combat is complete.
Amphibious landings: All land units except marines attack with a 1 during the first round of combat during an amphibious landing. Tanks cannot be paired with tac bombers during the first round to give them their bonus, but fighters can. Artillery cannot raise the attack value of infantry or marines during the first round of combat. During subsequent rounds, artillery can pair with marines to raise the marine’s attack to 3.
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ok i think this is how the unkown locations of germany is set up. correct me if wrong!
Germany: 6 inf, 1 mech, 1 art, 2 bombers
Western Germany: 6 inf, 3 tanks, 1 mech, 1 art, 2 ftr, 1 tac
Poland: 6 inf, 2 tanks, 1 mech, 1 art, 2 ftr, 1 tac
Greater southern Germany: 2 inf
Denmark: 1 inf
Norway: 1 inf
Holland: 4 inf, 1 ftr1 sub in each of the following seazones: 103,104,107,108,112,117,118,124
SZ 112: DD
SZ 113: BB, CA, DD
SZ 114: CA, 2 APALSO: the ships listed for UK europe are just for the SZ’s around the UK. theres no info for ships in gibraltar or the med.
RN:
SZ 119: 3 BB, 2 DD, 2 CA
SZ 109: 1 BB, 2 DD, 2 CA, 1 CV, 1 SS
SZ 111: 4 DD
SZ 110: BB, 2 DD, 2 CA, SSi think SZ 19 (gibraltar) has: 1 CV /w tac and a CA
Do we use the same navy in OOB for the med?
Japan has no info for deployment in Korea.
What i setup: germany, UKP, UKE ( navy only ), Japan
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China:
22 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 fighterusing IL pacific setup, japan would get steamrolled if thats chinas setup. i dont think this is correct.
IL said he was using real data and the ratios he posted. so i think were gunna stick to that instead of using info from a different board game
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China raised alot of divisions of poor quality during the war.
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@Imperious:
China raised alot of divisions of poor quality during the war.
wouldnt that be represented because the ratios used were on the # of units not the quality? because if we use D20’s, then sure, theyd have alot of guys but they would not be as good a Japanese infantry.
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IL, from your post on harris game design.
Fighters:
Russia - 6/7/12/4
Germany - 7/8/11/4
UK - 7/9/10/4
Japan - 7/7/9/4
US - 7/8/9/4
Italy - 6/7/12/4whats the 4th # used for?
attack/defence/cost/movement?
Destroyers:
Russia -2/3/7/3
Germany - 3/4/6/3
UK -3/3/6/3
Japan - 3/3/5/3
US - 3/3/5/3
Italy - 3/2/6/3that means destroyers move 3???
also this is for D12. do u have a list for D20? ( this is offtopic at the moment because first priority is the setup )
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That list is from 2004 and was proposed for Advanced Axis and Allies.
the values are correct, and some ships move 3 but that fell out of favor latter.
Just work on setup, and no i do not have d20 list. IMO the game does not need D20
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i like D20s because each # is a 5% increase rather than a 8.3%. Much easier to fine tune.
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yea but the dice take a long time to roll. Second problem is to gain support for your ideas you got to not step too far outside the box.
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I’m not sure that trying to make something different requires you to remain in the box. Many of the A&A games are lacking for the very reason that they kept the box. All of these re-issues and yet many games are still plagued with the same issues they had 20 years ago. ie. the need for bids, unrealistic setups, etc. etc.
Making something totally different might be a nice refreshing change. I don’t think the issue is needing to stay the same as much as it is needing to be very clear in the operation of the new game concept (and game balance goes without saying). Clear rules and usable charts go a long way to help players get a firm grasp and make it playable. The process of attracting people might take longer if the game represents a significant departure, but in many cases it really doesn’t matter. For many, anything other than a sanctioned A&A game is not an option anyway… those people would rather play A&A then a game that offers a different and/or improved experience. So at the end of the day they aren’t your target market anyways. But if people try something different and it works, its following will grow.
Keep going Keodis I’m interested to see what you come up with. Design it as you envision it. It can always be rescaled after the fact.
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I’m not sure that trying to make something different requires you to remain in the box. Many of the A&A games are lacking for the very reason that they kept the box. All of these re-issues and yet many games are still plagued with the same issues they had 20 years ago. ie. the need for bids, unrealistic setups, etc. etc.
Making something totally different might be a nice refreshing change. I don’t think the issue is needing to stay the same as much as it is needing to be very clear in the operation of the new game concept (and game balance goes without saying). Clear rules and usable charts go a long way to help players get a firm grasp and make it playable. The process of attracting people might take longer if the game represents a significant departure, but in many cases it really doesn’t matter. For many, anything other than a sanctioned A&A game is not an option anyway… those people would rather play A&A then a game that offers a different and/or improved experience. So at the end of the day they aren’t your target market anyways. But if people try something different and it works, its following will grow.
D20 system will not solve any problems regarding those that plague the OOB games as produced. Those problems are due to lack of long term play-testing and people who make incorrect decisions regarding the History and setups, etc. It can still be different with D6 or D12. D12 seems more natural and D20 seems too drastic. Why not D100?
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OK i am having trouble with the north african deployment. In libya the italians had 10 divisions of infantry, 2 of which were mechanized and had some medium tanks. they also had 300 aircraft that were outdated.
in egypt the UK had an under strength infantry division and an under strength armor division. they also had 205 aircraft that were even more outdated than the italians…… how am i going to represent this in A&A.
also France’s deployment is way too huge ( 16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber ). Germany will take extreme losses. im going to have to alter it because many of the troops didnt even fight and were bypassed. idk what percentage to put their army to. 40% percent strength??
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OK i am having trouble with the north african deployment. In libya the italians had 10 divisions of infantry, 2 of which were mechanized and had some medium tanks. they also had 300 aircraft that were outdated.
in egypt the UK had an under strength infantry division and an under strength armor division. they also had 205 aircraft that were even more outdated than the italians…… how am i going to represent this in A&A.
Italy would be 2 inf, 1 mech or 1 inf and 1 mech, no fighter.
UK would be 1 Inf, no fighterWhat happened is the Italians attacked in late summer and by October had a huge advantage over UK, but instead they just entrenched because they didn’t capitalize on the mechanization of warfare and decided this was a replay of the Great War.
Just get the deployments right and after that tweak strength.
also France’s deployment is way too huge ( 16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber ). Germany will take extreme losses. im going to have to alter it because many of the troops didn’t even fight and were bypassed. idk what percentage to put their army to. 40% percent strength??
This is easier. France had deployed Infantry, etc in her colonies.
Your goal should be first to find all the data and where everything should go, once you do that you begin process of tweaking. You don’t do it at this point. Finish up and post all of these imbalances latter.
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OK.
UK Europe: CV’s with no fighters are due to minimal airforce in location or lack of info.
Quebec: inf
SZ 96: AP
SZ 91: CA, CV /w tac
SZ 119: 3 BB, CA, 2 DD
SZ 109: BB, CV /w ftr and tac, 2 CA, 2 DD, SS
Scotland: AAA, inf, ftr
UK: 4 AAA, inf, 2 ftr, 2 tac, bomber
SZ 111: 4 DD
SZ 110: BB, CA, 2 DD, SS
France: (BEF) inf, art, mech
Malta: AAA
SZ 98: BB, CV /w tac, CA, DD
Egypt: inf
Anglo Egyptian Sudan: inf
Union of S Africa: infFrance ( what i know so far )
UK: inf
SZ 105: SS
SZ 93: DD, CA
SZ 92: BB, CA, SS
SZ 99: DD
SZ 110: DD
Morocco: inf
Algeria: inf
Tunisia: inf
French West Africa: inf
Madagascar: inf
Syria: inf
French Indo China: infIm done the USA Europe side and very, very close to finishing Italy. The earlier German setup i posted is not historical, it was a guess at what they would of done. It is extremely hard to find info on their deployment. Once im done Italy and Germany and figured out what to do with France, I can start to look at the USSR. Then im going to double check IL’s Pacific setup he posted.
Ill post the other setups tomorrow morning unless i get called into work.
If anyone wants to help, id appreciate them tackling the USSR or double checking IL’s setup and double checking mine as well.
If we can get a bunch of people to “proof read” this setup then we can sort out all mistakes fairly easily. Thx for all the help! -
French Indo China: inf
They didn’t have what would be 1 inf in FIC, rather i would place this in FWA.
For the Soviets they deployed alot of her forces on the border with some getting ready for attacking Finland and reserve in Moscow and Kiev. The far eastern force should be a mechanized force with tanks, art and at least one fighter. a few infantry too.
I cant remember what my extrapolation was for that, but it was more or less this:
4-5 inf
2-3 Mech
2 Tanks
2 Art
1 Fighter
1 AAA
1 SS
1 AP
1 Port ( Vladivostok)
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