I support the African team!
Wait…
The end of the world
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(1) JC will have a hard time in the last battle, if everyone who is not christian has to fight on the other side. And what about that “finding one lost sheep” is much better than “having a hundred”? Don’T you think that in the start of the last days we can drop our ballot for the side we want to join?
@1. Assuming Christ is God, which I do believe, why would God have a problem with anyone? He’s all-powerful. Those on the other side don’t stand a chance. Yeah, in the start of the last days, you can “drop your ballot for the side [you] want to join”. But I think you’d be too stubborn to do it anyway. You never know. Miracles do happen. (Please excuse this sarcastic remark. even my real world friends find themselves at the end of this. :D) After a while though, you won’t be able to change your mind. I won’t go into this though. You don’t want to hear it cuz you don’t believe the Bible.
(2) You don’t know much about science, do you? If you really think that our sun could explode, or that its later “less light emitted”, or the greenhouse effect will end the existance of the world……
@2. Call it sarcasm. I don’t agree that the sun will explode or that greenhouse gases will destroy the earth. I believe it will be darkened because that’s what the Bible says in the book of Revelation. However, since you don’t believe in the Bible, I don’t expect you to agree. From a scientific standpoint, it’s unbelievable. But since we’re dealing with God, “all things are possible”, and unbelievable things do happen with Him.
I am expecting severe disagreement on this. :wink:
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@1. Assuming Christ is God, which I do believe, why would God have a problem with anyone? He’s all-powerful. Those on the other side don’t stand a chance. Yeah, in the start of the last days, you can “drop your ballot for the side [you] want to join”. But I think you’d be too stubborn to do it anyway. You never know. Miracles do happen. (Please excuse this sarcastic remark. even my real world friends find themselves at the end of this. :D) After a while though, you won’t be able to change your mind. I won’t go into this though. You don’t want to hear it cuz you don’t believe the Bible.
Well, you said i was doomed for eternity if i don’t make my mind up now…
if you were right, then i would have a choice before the battle starts… but then i have evidence that i/my believe was wrong before, and can change accordingly, that’s what is called scientific. Give me proof, and i will admit my fault.
This Revelation is the later addition of Johannes/John, isn’t it? With this “666 the numbe rof the beast”-thing, right?.. Believe it or not, i have read that among other parts of the bible. If i had not, how could i have made up my mind about it?
BTW, as the bible is such a holy book… do you have a good looking, virgin sister? … Then i could rape her, pay your dad 60 silver, marry her and would not be allowed to divorce her… but maybe that would be worth it… And of course, should a war in Iraq start… will GWB ask them …how many times i forgot… to surrender… and if they don’t, and the US win, slaughter all males, and enslave all children and females as god brought him the victory???
Do you really believe all that???@2. Call it sarcasm. I don’t agree that the sun will explode or that greenhouse gases will destroy the earth. I believe it will be darkened because that’s what the Bible says in the book of Revelation. However, since you don’t believe in the Bible, I don’t expect you to agree. From a scientific standpoint, it’s unbelievable. But since we’re dealing with God, “all things are possible”, and unbelievable things do happen with Him.
I am expecting severe disagreement on this. :wink:See above… You seem to take the bible literally. Then have a look at one of the books of Moses with all the laws in there… they are too funny to be taken seriously.
And of course, there is no way to convince you, as you are a dogmatic christian fundamentalist.
Would you kill in the name of God? Do you think the Crusades were a good thing? Do you think a war against Hussein would be a good thing? Are Jews and Muslims heretics, pagans? If yes: how to deal with them? -
I’d love to be around, at the end of time, if it had anything to do with zombies running wild. :wink:
“When theres no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth”
Classic line from ‘Dawn of the Dead’.
Great zombie flick. -
Ah…. all evil back on earth
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Well, you said i was doomed for eternity if i don’t make my mind up now…
I _did not say that exactly. This is just to make sure my words aren’t misconstrued. I meant that if you don’t “make [your] mind up now” on earth, while you’re still alive to believe in Christ, then you’re “doomed.” so you may still have time to play around with this, but then none of us are really sure just how much time we actually have.
Give me proof, and i will admit my fault.
proof for what? the existence of God? (which is a different thread, ya know) scientific proof requires observation. i have never physically observed God, as in touch, see, hear, etc. i’ve never claimed to, and i admit it willingly. so this proof you’re waiting for will come at an unpredictable time. you may not even be here. i will do my best to show you evidence, but that’s all i can show you.
BTW, as the bible is such a holy book…. do you have a good looking, virgin sister? … Then i could rape her, pay your dad 60 silver, marry her and would not be allowed to divorce her… but maybe that would be worth it… And of course, should a war in Iraq start… will GWB ask them …how many times i forgot… to surrender… and if they don’t, and the US win, slaughter all males, and enslave all children and females as god brought him the victory???
Do you really believe all that???
See above… You seem to take the bible literally. Then have a look at one of the books of Moses with all the laws in there… they are too funny to be taken seriously.
And of course, there is no way to convince you, as you are a dogmatic christian fundamentalist.
Would you kill in the name of God? Do you think the Crusades were a good thing? Do you think a war against Hussein would be a good thing? Are Jews and Muslims heretics, pagans? If yes: how to deal with them?i believe the Bible tells about this,yes. and i believe it literally too, unless it says otherwise. but you are taking this from the Old Testament. key word: Old. God was dealing with the Hebrews then in a system based on the deeds they did. He was trying to show them how they could not live up to His standards on their own. that’s why Moses was given those laws. God does not ask us to kill in His name. He asked Christians to go out and show others the mercy He has shown us. We haven’t done as well as we should with that. In short, no i would not kill in the name of God. If you define “pagan” as anything outside of Christianity (the kind that says Jesus died on a cross and rose again in 3 days, and He is the only way to salvation), then yes the Muslims are pagans. i’m not sure about the Jews. God has always had His own way of dealing with them, and since i don’t know how He thinks, i don’t know for sure whether the Jewish belief system is valid or not. i would not go after Hussein for religious reasons. if he was attacking America, sure i would want to defend my country, but i would never harm someone just because he/she doesn’t share my beliefs.
as for the sister thing, i don’t really care for this when it gets personal. i do have a sister, so the hypothetical situation was disturbing (for lack of a better word). but if that’s how you have to get your point across, fine._
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I _did not say that exactly. This is just to make sure my words aren’t misconstrued. I meant that if you don’t “make [your] mind up now” on earth, while you’re still alive to believe in Christ, then you’re “doomed.” so you may still have time to play around with this, but then none of us are really sure just how much time we actually have.
So, when i die (and go to heaven or hell or whereever), i have chosen? What about all those poor bastards who died without ever having heard of christianity? Will they all fight for evil in the last battle then?
i believe the Bible tells about this,yes. and i believe it literally too, unless it says otherwise. but you are taking this from the Old Testament. key word: Old. God was dealing with the Hebrews then in a system based on the deeds they did. He was trying to show them how they could not live up to His standards on their own. that’s why Moses was given those laws.
So you believe God gave an update (from Judaism to Christianity), but you don’t believe he gave a second update (from Christianity to Islam), right?
How can you tell that the one update was right, and the second wasn’t one?God does not ask us to kill in His name. He asked Christians to go out and show others the mercy He has shown us. We haven’t done as well as we should with that. In short, no i would not kill in the name of God. If you define “pagan” as anything outside of Christianity (the kind that says Jesus died on a cross and rose again in 3 days, and He is the only way to salvation), then yes the Muslims are pagans.
You would kill not in the name of god?
And are you so sure that muslims don’t acknowledge that JC died on a cross and came back from the dead? Ever talked to a muslim about that??if he was attacking America, sure i would want to defend my country, but i would never harm someone just because he/she doesn’t share my beliefs.
But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…_
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Give me proof, and i will admit my fault.
proof for what? the existence of God? (which is a different thread, ya know) scientific proof requires observation. i have never physically observed God, as in touch, see, hear, etc. i’ve never claimed to, and i admit it willingly. so this proof you’re waiting for will come at an unpredictable time. you may not even be here. i will do my best to show you evidence, but that’s all i can show you.
You could have an indirect proof, we never saw the big bang.
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@difernT:
i believe the Bible tells about this,yes. and i believe it literally too, unless it says otherwise. but you are taking this from the Old Testament. key word: Old. God was dealing with the Hebrews then in a system based on the deeds they did. He was trying to show them how they could not live up to His standards on their own. that’s why Moses was given those laws. God does not ask us to kill in His name. He asked Christians to go out and show others the mercy He has shown us. We haven’t done as well as we should with that. In short, no i would not kill in the name of God. If you define “pagan” as anything outside of Christianity (the kind that says Jesus died on a cross and rose again in 3 days, and He is the only way to salvation), then yes the Muslims are pagans. i’m not sure about the Jews. God has always had His own way of dealing with them, and since i don’t know how He thinks, i don’t know for sure whether the Jewish belief system is valid or not. i would not go after Hussein for religious reasons. if he was attacking America, sure i would want to defend my country, but i would never harm someone just because he/she doesn’t share my beliefs.
That’s an interesting spin you put on why God gave the laws to Moses. I personally disagree. I don’t think dietary laws, modesty laws etc. are to show the Jews that they cannot live up to God’s standards. I think it is to set a new standard. I, speaking personally as a Jew, cannot do many of the things that you can do, a simple example being to charge interest to a fellow Jew. Such laws that are set to improve relations between people are at a higher standard, in my opinion. I think that the Jewish laws for dealing with other Jews are a light to the other nations so to speak. Not charging interest from a friend, though it may seem weird, promotes a lifestyle of peace and better relations. I don’t think the Crusades or missionary work really do that. They bring about more strife. the laws given to the Jews I think bring up a new standard that is closer to God. They help tocreate an atmosphere of peace, which our world really could use.
Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.
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@difernT:
i believe the Bible tells about this,yes. and i believe it literally too, unless it says otherwise. but you are taking this from the Old Testament. key word: Old. God was dealing with the Hebrews then in a system based on the deeds they did. He was trying to show them how they could not live up to His standards on their own. that’s why Moses was given those laws. God does not ask us to kill in His name. He asked Christians to go out and show others the mercy He has shown us. We haven’t done as well as we should with that. In short, no i would not kill in the name of God. If you define “pagan” as anything outside of Christianity (the kind that says Jesus died on a cross and rose again in 3 days, and He is the only way to salvation), then yes the Muslims are pagans. i’m not sure about the Jews. God has always had His own way of dealing with them, and since i don’t know how He thinks, i don’t know for sure whether the Jewish belief system is valid or not. i would not go after Hussein for religious reasons. if he was attacking America, sure i would want to defend my country, but i would never harm someone just because he/she doesn’t share my beliefs.
That’s an interesting spin you put on why God gave the laws to Moses. I personally disagree. I don’t think dietary laws, modesty laws etc. are to show the Jews that they cannot live up to God’s standards. I think it is to set a new standard. I, speaking personally as a Jew, cannot do many of the things that you can do, a simple example being to charge interest to a fellow Jew. Such laws that are set to improve relations between people are at a higher standard, in my opinion. I think that the Jewish laws for dealing with other Jews are a light to the other nations so to speak. Not charging interest from a friend, though it may seem weird, promotes a lifestyle of peace and better relations. I don’t think the Crusades or missionary work really do that. They bring about more strife. the laws given to the Jews I think bring up a new standard that is closer to God. They help tocreate an atmosphere of peace, which our world really could use.
Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.
Well EG, although i agree with you about the laws setting a new standard. Old Testament laws (IMHO) were designed to keep the Jews separate from others and in covenant with God. They were meant to help the Jews live in harmony and righteousness with God, and at the same time to help the Jews live in harmony with each other.
Jesus shook things up quite a bit. He gave us a nearly impossible set of laws. Rather than focussing on our actions, our thoughts and words entered the equation as well. Now it was not enough to simply not kill someone (you have heard it said an eye for an eye) but to “turn the other cheek”, “love those who hate you” “pray for those who persecute you” etc. This does not mean that Moses and the OT Jews were wrong to apply the “eye for an eye” rule as that was considered a just law, and to prevent people from dying b/c of revenge killings.
w.r.t. Jews not charging interest of friends - Jesus said that anyone can love your friends - its loving your enemies that is not only tough, but commanded. “if you are sued for your shirt, give your coat as well.” Commandments from bizaar-o-land, for sure, but ones that are supposed to set Christians apart from everyone, even Jews. Too bad so many Christians suck at these (myself included). It’s something i have to remind myself of constantly, and even that doesn’t work too well . . . . -
First of all, for your love your enemies claim that keeps the Christians separate, the Jews would sacrifice for each nation of the ancient world every year at the temple in case god was angry with them, so that he would forgive them. An “eye for an eye” is not literal, it’s to be taken figuratively. The concept of capital punishment is in Judaism, but no one in all of Jewish History, which is quite a few years, has ever gotten it. The Jewish courts work in a completely different way from the general courts.
As for Jesus’ message, Jesus said that people did not have to follow anything but be “good” people. Jesus’ definition of good implied that his followers would not have to follow any rituals and such laws as ythe ones you mentioned are impossible to follow. “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you” is impossible for a human being to follow. Jesus took this ideal from Judaism but reversed it. Judaism’s is “Do not do unto tohers what you would not have others do unto you” which people can do. Christianity offered a very hard life to live when attempting to follow Jesus’ teachings for the early Christians, which is my guess as to why almsot if not everything he said was thrown out.
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That’s an interesting spin you put on why God gave the laws to Moses
Gave laws to me? That’s a new one… :roll:
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Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.
do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.
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@F_alk:
Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.
do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.
Ya, you do quite often but I’m not surprised considering the propoganda and stereotypes and lack of information about Judaism and Jews. I once had a Roman Catholic ask me if I went to church every Sunday, even though Jews don’t celebrate Sunday as the day of rest. I have a friend who met a Christian family who wouldn’t believe he was Jewish because he didn’t have devil horns and didn’t worship satan. They refused to believe that what they had learned about Jews was wrong. Another one of my friends told me that he once knew a chef that asked him if Jews really drink the blood of Christian children. It’s very sad - all the misinformation.
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@F_alk:
do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.
Ya, you do quite often but I’m not surprised considering the propoganda and stereotypes and lack of information about Judaism and Jews.
do i show myself that misinformed???
I know i don’t know a lot about Judaism…. but whatever you bring up in arguments, you won’t see me doubt that very often… whereas i often doubt wether that (what you told me) makes sense to follow :).
And i must admit, i know more about Islam than about Judaism… even though i have read most of what christians call the “old” testament, and take that as a base, applying it in a sense that i think faithful Jews should follow that.
I also know a bit about Jewish history, not my speciality though… -
@F_alk:
Alright, I think it’s time to see FinsterniS and F_alk begin attempts to bash my arguement by applying Christian ideals to Judaism and then bashing them.
do i really usually apply christian ideals to your arguements? I mean, i try not to, but being raised in a mainly christian country and all, it would not suprise me totally.
Ya, you do quite often but I’m not surprised considering the propoganda and stereotypes and lack of information about Judaism and Jews. I once had a Roman Catholic ask me if I went to church every Sunday, even though Jews don’t celebrate Sunday as the day of rest. I have a friend who met a Christian family who wouldn’t believe he was Jewish because he didn’t have devil horns and didn’t worship satan. They refused to believe that what they had learned about Jews was wrong. Another one of my friends told me that he once knew a chef that asked him if Jews really drink the blood of Christian children. It’s very sad - all the misinformation.
You have some stange friends yo.
Do Jews drink the blood of Christian children???
Yes, all Jews are really vampires. -
So, when i die (and go to heaven or hell or whereever), i have chosen? What about all those poor bastards who died without ever having heard of christianity? Will they all fight for evil in the last battle then?
unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.
So you believe God gave an update (from Judaism to Christianity), but you don’t believe he gave a second update (from Christianity to Islam), right?
How can you tell that the one update was right, and the second wasn’t one?the “update” is from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and it did not actually occur until Christ’s death and resurrection. i know this one is right because the two agree with each other. Christ quoted much of the Old Testament. i don’t believe that islam is an update because it does not agree with the Old Testament.
You would kill not in the name of god?
And are you so sure that muslims don’t acknowledge that JC died on a cross and came back from the dead? Ever talked to a muslim about that??it’s in their holy book. Jesus was only a prophet, a good teacher. and prophets don’t rise from the dead. Mohammed came after him to “update” the religion, but i, obviously, don’t believe this.
no, i wouldn’t kill in the name of God because that’s not what He taught.But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…
i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it. -
So, when i die (and go to heaven or hell or whereever), i have chosen? What about all those poor bastards who died without ever having heard of christianity? Will they all fight for evil in the last battle then?
unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.
So you believe God gave an update (from Judaism to Christianity), but you don’t believe he gave a second update (from Christianity to Islam), right?
How can you tell that the one update was right, and the second wasn’t one?the “update” is from the Old Testament to the New Testament, and it did not actually occur until Christ’s death and resurrection. i know this one is right because the two agree with each other. Christ quoted much of the Old Testament. i don’t believe that islam is an update because it does not agree with the Old Testament.
You would kill not in the name of god?
And are you so sure that muslims don’t acknowledge that JC died on a cross and came back from the dead? Ever talked to a muslim about that??it’s in their holy book. Jesus was only a prophet, a good teacher. and prophets don’t rise from the dead. Mohammed came after him to “update” the religion, but i, obviously, don’t believe this.
no, i wouldn’t kill in the name of God because that’s not what He taught.But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…
i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it.Why should I go to hell for not being a Christian? I worship God as do many other Jews and Muslims do too. Just because they dont accept Jesus, doesn’t mean they should go to hell. Also, why would people go to hell for not believing in God? Perhaps that’s one of hte major points that our two religions, Judaism and Christianity, disagree on. My religion teaches that the non-Jews do not necessarily go to hell for not believing in God, but they might if they commit horrible crimes against one another such as theft or murder. My religion also teaches that people do not go to hell forever, yet only until their soul is cleansed of their misdeeds, after which they come to heaven. Since when is not believing in Jesus a sin?
As for your references to the Old Testament, please call it the Bible, as some of us here do not believe in the New Testament. About your quote from Exodus, it means “Thou shall not murder”, not “Thou shall not kill” and there is a major difference between murder and killing. Your translation of the quote from Exodus is inacccurate, which changes its meaning completely. As for your second quote from the Bible, it does not contradict the first one. The time for killing could be interpreted as during war-time. In war, you must defend yourself even if that means killing.
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But any killing is not christian! If someone slaps you in the face…
i don’t agree. that particular quote is taken out of context from the rest of the passage (Matthew 5, the Sermon on the Mount). every one of the situations Jesus cited was a personal disagreement. attacks on my country are not strictly personal. the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill.” (Exodus 20:13) But in Ecclesiastes 3:3 it says, “A time to kill, and a time to heal…” Contradictory? Seemingly. But in Matthew 5:21 He cites the verse in Exodus, then explains it in Matthew 5:22 He says, “…whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause [emphasis mine] shall be in danger of the judgment…” and 1 John 3:15 says, “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer…” to make a long story short, the “slap in the face” deals with personal/private disagreements. thou shalt not kill refers to hating someone, or being angry at someone without a reason. both of those are equated with murder. and note, in Exodus, God tells them not to kill, but later He tells them to take cities and stuff. it goes back to anger/hate without cause.
check it out for yourself, make sure i’m not taking verses out of context. i’m not being facetious, i mean it.i have to disagree with you here. I think that you’re going to unreasonable lengths to make the war-hawkish “christians” look right when they’re not. Under no circumstances are Christians told to kill, or even attack someone (word or deed). Christianity is an extreme religion - mainstream Christianity is not.
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unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.
Ha, in my religion everybody goes to the “heaven” they want to be (atheist and other religions are welcome alike)… end of story… Why must there be this ultimate fight between good an evil? Both sides lose… just one side more. Am I the only one that finds this “Last Battle” a bit anachronistic?
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@TG:
unfortunately, i think they go to hell too. there are differences of opinions on this, but the Bible says that God hates sin, the wrong things we do. and that’s why He told the Christians to spread His message, but we haven’t been doing that as well as we should. and only the people who are still alive will “fight for evil.” the ones who are dead don’t come back for the battle.
Ha, in my religion everybody goes to the “heaven” they want to be (atheist and other religions are welcome alike)… end of story… Why must there be this ultimate fight between good an evil? Both sides lose… just one side more. Am I the only one that finds this “Last Battle” a bit anachronistic?
regardless of whether you find an idea or event to be anachronistic does not determine whether it is to be played out.
And there must ultimately be a fight between good and evil. There will come a point when they can not be in the same universe at the same time.
And no. One side will win. That’s pre-determined.
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