I went when I was really young. I think I mainly visited resorts and amusement parks.
Chechnya
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I was simply showing an example of how Greek borrowed some things form Hebrew. You’re most likely right about the Phoenicians, though some say the Sumarians. Bot the Jews and the Muslims came from Arbaham, which could explain the similarities. Another one is that Mohammed got his idea of monotheism from Jewish merhcants who he met as he traveled through Judea as a merchant. He definetely pickedu p Hebrew, and after many years it could have had some sort of influence on Arabic. Also, I’m talking in the years of the middle ages, when Christians weren’t allowed into the Islamic empire. Jews were the go-betweens between the two enemies, that is, when they werent being persecuted.
Well, your example for showing how Greek burrowed from Hebrew was none.
And yes, i was trying to make a point that (modern) Jews and Arabs have the same roots. And i bet that Canaanites and Philistines had the same roots as (ancient) Jews.
The idea of monotheism in the muslim faith likely came from one of the two monotheistic faiths. I do not know which one directly, but the christian faith was strong in that area at that time, with Byzantine being such a close neighbor.
And last, of what time in the middel ages do you talk of?
All faiths were allowed to go to Jerusalem before the Crusades, noone was killed on sight. Christians have special rights in the muslim faith, just as jews have: they both have the “book”, and therefore enjoy (by the Quran) much more freedom than other religions.
The situation of course changed after the crusades, and only for believers of the latin christianity. Orthodox christians still were tolerated, or why was there still a Patriarch of Konstaninople, after the city fell to the ottomans? -
@F_alk:
I was simply showing an example of how Greek borrowed some things form Hebrew. You’re most likely right about the Phoenicians, though some say the Sumarians. Bot the Jews and the Muslims came from Arbaham, which could explain the similarities. Another one is that Mohammed got his idea of monotheism from Jewish merhcants who he met as he traveled through Judea as a merchant. He definetely pickedu p Hebrew, and after many years it could have had some sort of influence on Arabic. Also, I’m talking in the years of the middle ages, when Christians weren’t allowed into the Islamic empire. Jews were the go-betweens between the two enemies, that is, when they werent being persecuted.
Well, your example for showing how Greek burrowed from Hebrew was none.
And yes, i was trying to make a point that (modern) Jews and Arabs have the same roots. And i bet that Canaanites and Philistines had the same roots as (ancient) Jews.
The idea of monotheism in the muslim faith likely came from one of the two monotheistic faiths. I do not know which one directly, but the christian faith was strong in that area at that time, with Byzantine being such a close neighbor.
And last, of what time in the middel ages do you talk of?
All faiths were allowed to go to Jerusalem before the Crusades, noone was killed on sight. Christians have special rights in the muslim faith, just as jews have: they both have the “book”, and therefore enjoy (by the Quran) much more freedom than other religions.
The situation of course changed after the crusades, and only for believers of the latin christianity. Orthodox christians still were tolerated, or why was there still a Patriarch of Konstaninople, after the city fell to the ottomans?No, the Philistines were orginally a Greek tribe that migrated from the Greek islands. They do not resemble modern day Arabs and Palestinians at all. The Canaanites were centred in Canaan, also known as Israel or Judea and Samaria. The Jews came from Abraham, who was from Harran. Some say it is in turkey, though others say it’s in fact Ur, in Sumer.
During the Middle Ages, especially during the Crusades, the Jews were persectued. Before the crusades many were persecuted and exiled too. The Jews were forced to leave Britain, and Sardinia, for example.
As from which religion Islam developed, it is clearly from Judaism and not from Christianity. Mohammed came to the Jews and Babylon and tried to convince them to follow him but they rejected him. Also, many Islamic ideas come from Judais and some of their holidays, such as Ramadan, have some similarities to Judaism.
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@TG:
biggist country in the world!
Yeah but how much of that terrain is actually hospital? Same with China, Saudi Arabia, Canada, and the US (before massive irrigation took place). Size alone is a bad indicator… (just look at UK, California, or Japan…)
egxactly! the USA will have a hard time invading
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There’s no reason for them to in the first place… this notion manly comes from warmongers and restless armchair generals… :-?
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ya but just in case Bush desids that russians are evil
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hmmm… are we forgetting the Cold War? Same goes with China…
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Russia would be a good ally. And if Russia is stable, that means their nuke supply won’t leak out to Terrorists in Sudan.
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No, the Philistines were orginally a Greek tribe that migrated from the Greek islands. They do not resemble modern day Arabs and Palestinians at all. The Canaanites were centred in Canaan, also known as Israel or Judea and Samaria. The Jews came from Abraham, who was from Harran. Some say it is in turkey, though others say it’s in fact Ur, in Sumer.
Do modern jews still resemble the ancient ones that much? If they do, then they must have a pretty crapy gene-pool, after these millenia.
And if i understand you right: the Canaanites were the natives in Judea, which was then conquered by the Hebrews?
And if so, why does the hebrew language have these close similarities to arab, even today, after 1000 years of exile, especially when their roots are Sumerian?
Anotehr question: Did Sumer still exist when Babylon controlled much of the Two-Rivers area? Did they adopt the babylonian alphabet? (Sorry, i could look that up myself, but i am too lazy)During the Middle Ages, especially during the Crusades, the Jews were persectued. Before the crusades many were persecuted and exiled too. The Jews were forced to leave Britain, and Sardinia, for example.
Yes, i know. But that has nothing to do with the muslim ruled countries. My question was: What time of the middle ages do you talk of, that christians were “shot on sight” there?
As from which religion Islam developed, it is clearly from Judaism and not from Christianity. Mohammed came to the Jews and Babylon and tried to convince them to follow him but they rejected him. Also, many Islamic ideas come from Judais and some of their holidays, such as Ramadan, have some similarities to Judaism.
Many of the ideas in Christianity come from Judaism. And if you claim that Islam developed not from Christianity, why is it that Jesus Christ is the only prophet to come back from the dead and judge on the “end of days”?
Why is J.C. given the title of prophet, just as Abraham and Mohammed?
Because Islam developed not from Christianity?To make my point: I don’t it was only this or that monotheistic religion, i say it was both, out of which Islam emerged.
Ask a muslim, and he will answer that Islam is kind of “True Faith Version 3.0”, with Christianity being V2.0 and Judaism V1.0.
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F_alk - a modern people resembling one that is <5000 has little to do with the gene pool, so much as the fact that evolution (on a macro-scale) does not take place in so short a time period. Throw another million years, and one might be curious as to why they still closely resemble them. Further the gene pool determines people’s phenotypes today - a crappy gene pool might be more likely to randomly mutate and cause greater changes faster. Kind of like viruses and bacteria - they have “crappy” genes (as they mutate very quickly) but this is why there is such a high incidence of drug-resistant bacteria.
kind of way off topic, i know. sorry. -
@cystic:
F_alk - a modern people resembling one that is <5000 has little to do with the gene pool, so much as the fact that evolution (on a macro-scale) does not take place in so short a time period.
I was (kind of) referring to the notion of jews being a rather “elite” group of people, with few joining in from outside, probably as good as noone during the middle ages.
And evolution is pretty fast, when in comes to a limited gene-pool, have a look at european high royalty at the end of the middle ages and in the baroque and renessaince (sp?), or at isolated mountain villages.Anotehr thing: There was (is?) an african tribe who claims to be one (the one?) lost tribe of ancient Juda. And there was actual talk to have a genetic comparison towards todays Jews, to see wether tehy could be that, and be alowed to settle in Israel.
Throw another million years, and one might be curious as to why they still closely resemble them. Further the gene pool determines people’s phenotypes today - a crappy gene pool might be more likely to randomly mutate and cause greater changes faster. Kind of like viruses and bacteria - they have “crappy” genes (as they mutate very quickly) but this is why there is such a high incidence of drug-resistant bacteria.
kind of way off topic, i know. sorry.In a few millions years, mankind will not at all look like today, that’s for sure.
And i always like to learn, even though my actual biological knowledge is rather weak, i did some molecular biology and found that highly interesting. -
@F_alk:
Do modern jews still resemble the ancient ones that much? If they do, then they must have a pretty crapy gene-pool, after these millenia.
And if i understand you right: the Canaanites were the natives in Judea, which was then conquered by the Hebrews?
And if so, why does the hebrew language have these close similarities to arab, even today, after 1000 years of exile, especially when their roots are Sumerian?
Anotehr question: Did Sumer still exist when Babylon controlled much of the Two-Rivers area? Did they adopt the babylonian alphabet? (Sorry, i could look that up myself, but i am too lazy)Yes, i know. But that has nothing to do with the muslim ruled countries. My question was: What time of the middle ages do you talk of, that christians were “shot on sight” there?
Many of the ideas in Christianity come from Judaism. And if you claim that Islam developed not from Christianity, why is it that Jesus Christ is the only prophet to come back from the dead and judge on the “end of days”?
Why is J.C. given the title of prophet, just as Abraham and Mohammed?
Because Islam developed not from Christianity?To make my point: I don’t it was only this or that monotheistic religion, i say it was both, out of which Islam emerged.
Ask a muslim, and he will answer that Islam is kind of “True Faith Version 3.0”, with Christianity being V2.0 and Judaism V1.0.
Do modern Jews resemble anceint ones? In terms of religion, yes, very much so. The only major difference is the loss of sacrificies with the temple and some customs. But Jewish law and the basics of the religion have not changed. In Judaism, the law cannot be changed, but rather adapted to fit modern times. You can’t start fiddling with the religious laws. So that is the asnwer to that question.
As for Jesus versus Mohammed, you forgot a MAJOR difference between the two. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah by his actions, while Mohammed only said he was a prophet. The two are very different and both led to the respectives religions to be very different.
About not many people entering Judaism, this is because Judaism is very different from other religions such as Christianity regarding conversion. Judaism has no beliefs that one must be Jewish in order to go to heaven and it has no desire to see the world convert, quite the opposite from Christinaity’s missionary work. There is no such thing as Jewish missionaries, they are against the Jewish religion. To convert to Judaism, one must go through a long 3 year process that requires lost of learning and tests.
About similarities between Hebrew and Arabic, that’s very much because Jews lived in the Arabian Peninsula for centuries, some say since Biblical times, which is over 1600 years before Mohammed and Islam.
About Sumer, it is considered to have been the first civilization by some, so it’s very hard to know but my guess is no. The Jews lived in Babylon for a long time, as they were exiled there after the destruction of the first temple. Even when some returned, there was still a large Jewish community there.
On the issue of African tribes, that is a very hard thing to look at, especially because these tribes have been lost through the Assyrian exiles, just as many nations such as the remainder of the Canaanites and the Philistines were lost. It is hard to know whether to consider them Jews or nto, because they have not practiced and lost the entire religion over many years. There is much debate over the issue.
Maranos of the Spanish Inquisition are another question. These were Jews who converted to Christianity but practiced Judaism in secret in Spain after the exile of the Jews in 1492. Are these people still Jews, as they went against Jewish law and lost the religion, or are they still Jewish? It’s still a hot issue, and only time will tell.
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Do modern Jews resemble anceint ones? In terms of religion, yes, very much so.
I’ll come to that later
As for Jesus versus Mohammed, you forgot a MAJOR difference between the two. Jesus claimed to be the Messiah by his actions, while Mohammed only said he was a prophet. The two are very different and both led to the respectives religions to be very different.
What has this (how christianity sees itself) to do with the other points (how Islam sees Judaism and Christianity, and how it behaves towards the two, and the history of Judaism)?
Your argument is better suited to claim that Islam has nothing to do with Judaism: Islam doesn’t wait for a Messiah, and says Mohammed was the last prophet (AFAIR, for the second claim). That makes these religions “very different”, in your way of arguing.About not many people entering Judaism, this is because Judaism is very different from other religions such as Christianity regarding conversion. Judaism has no beliefs that one must be Jewish in order to go to heaven and it has no desire to see the world convert, quite the opposite from Christinaity’s missionary work. There is no such thing as Jewish missionaries, they are against the Jewish religion. To convert to Judaism, one must go through a long 3 year process that requires lost of learning and tests.
That was what i was referring too: Less “racial” change can be a reason for less change in internal social affairs, like the Hebrew language, especially when used for (see above, for how religion has not changed) religious affairs. Therefore, you back up my claim that Hebrew as a language hasn’t changed much since the hebrew people were dispersed over the (western known) world.
About similarities between Hebrew and Arabic, that’s very much because Jews lived in the Arabian Peninsula for centuries, some say since Biblical times, which is over 1600 years before Mohammed and Islam.
I would think that Jews lived around Judea in biblical times. Wether they “founded” a language there, sounds highly dubious. We would then have found a lot more archeological evidence for the impact of the Hebrew Culture in ancient Arabia. But if you look from the archeological point of view, then Judea was not much more than a peasant kingdom most of the time.
What you do on the other hand:
You ignore the Phoenicians again….One important question about the languages:
Did Hebrew develop from Phoenician, or the other way round?In the first case, all the rest you claim is more or less unimportant. The languages Hebrew and Arab obviously have a lot in common, still there are differences. This means that they will have been the same some long time ago.
Where do you think is that root?
Hebrew? Phoenician? Another language?About Sumer, it is considered to have been the first civilization by some, so it’s very hard to know but my guess is no. The Jews lived in Babylon for a long time, as they were exiled there after the destruction of the first temple. Even when some returned, there was still a large Jewish community there.
Was Sumer before Babylon, what about the Assyrians etc.??? … I remember there were at least these three “high civilizations” popping up and going under at Euphrat and Tigris.
Of what importance is the Babylonian exile to the other points we talked? -
Islaam evolved from Christianity I’m pretty sure.
Muslims celebrate Christmas. They believe Christ was an important figure in history, and in fact J.C. set the stage for Mohammad and friends. They believe J.C. just thought he was the Messiah, but in fact he was a prophet.
I think you got Falk’s question a bit wrong. Ethnically, how do jews from 3,000 years ago resemble modern day Jews? Very little.
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I think i read something that said Islam evolved from Christianity more than it did from Judaims … during the weekend… if i only could remember where… sigh i am growing old ;)
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This thread was really buried. I’m looking at my chart of ancient writings for you, F_alk. the oldest it goes is to the 10th century BCE, whrer it has both Hebrew and Phoenician writing, so I’m not sure which developed first. It’s possible that they developed very closely at around the same time, making it hard to differentiate.
On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity. Also, Christianity may or may not be viewed as a monotheistic religion. It depends on how you argue it. I would say that some branches of Christinaity are monotheistic but some, suchy as Catholicism (CC, please don’t kill me for this) are polytheistic.
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why would i kill you for that EG? Remember - i’m a Mennonite. We’re pacifists - no killing.
Also i agree - the catholic tendency to venerate dead people is a little verging-on-polytheism-ish for me.
i’ve had this discussion many times w/ my (Catholic) g/f. -
I dont think many Christians would take kindly to being called Polytheists and since you argue for the Christians, I assumed you wouldn’t like that either. iwas actually referring to the Trinity of God that the Catholics believe in when I said polytheism.
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well, all “Christians” believe in the trinity . . . that’s not a polytheism so much (i actually believe that it is possible that various "pantheons of gods exists, but i also believe that there is one true "G"od). It’s more like the three faces of God. For example, one day i hope to be a father, a husband, a doctor, a friend, a scientist etc. All different aspects of myself combined into one being. Now the scientist side of me and the doctor side of me might have a different outlook, particularly with regard to the husband side of me. That’s fine - that doesn’t mean that i’m perpetually living in some kind of bizaare fugue state, but rather that i am blessed with different ways of relating to the world all wrapped in one person. Forgive the clumsy simile - its not intended to be a parable so much as to convey the simple side to my understanding of things.
Also i certainly do not speak for all Christians. I’m quite certain that dIfrenT (or however you do your capitalizations) would vehemently argue with me on certain points, as would other Christians. That’s fine. In the end it won’t matter. -
On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity.
Well, it recognizes Christian prophets (the one important at least). I also don’t see what you mean by “focussing on prayer” and how christianity does not do that. And christianity did have its dietary laws, it just lost them over the time.
Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle?? -
@F_alk:
On the issue of Islam, it has no roots in Christianity. Islam has focus on prayer, has its own dietary laws, recognizes Jewish prophets, and has many more things that were adopted from Judaism. There is nothing from what I’ve read (currently I’m studying Islam in relation of Jewish History) to show any resemblance to Christianity.
Well, it recognizes Christian prophets (the one important at least). I also don’t see what you mean by “focussing on prayer” and how christianity does not do that. And christianity did have its dietary laws, it just lost them over the time.
Once again: If Islam has no roots in christianity, how can you explain that JC in Islam is the one prohet who will return from the dead to lead the last battle??our dietary laws were mostly expunged in the book of Acts in an effort to rid Christianity of laws that took away from the basic message.
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