Napoleonic Empire - 5ppl - Free for All (Noll - Veqryn - Alex - Wheat - Gekk)

[lexgreat]

Round 21

Russia does nothing

[wheatbeer]

Ottomans do nothing.

[Noll]

France downgrade relations with the UK to ceasefire.

[Gekkepop]

UK declares war on Austria.

[Noll]

@Gekkepop:

UK declares war on Austria.

if you are allies, you have to ceasefire first

[Veqryn]

nothing for me

[Noll]

I think we can’t stop uk winning now from the gentle concession of Austria: sending his men to die in an holy mission to  help uk dominate.

Maybe next game we will follow the game rules where it says a power undr attack must defend his capitol with all his strenght, or just delete this rule from this game.

GG

[Noll]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: Napoleonic Empires: FFA 5 Player, version: 4.0.7

Game History

Round :21

Combat Move - France
            1 Dragoons moved from Bavaria to Hesse
                  France take Hesse from AustrianEmpire
            1 Dragoons moved from Hesse to Saxony
            1 Cuirassiers moved from Tyrol to Saxony
            8 Cuirassierss moved from Salzburg to Saxony
            31 Fusilierss and 9 Howitzers moved from Rhine to Hesse
            2 Artillerys, 15 Chasseurss, 25 Fusilierss, 23 Howitzers and 3 Mortarss moved from Salzburg to Bohemia
            1 Brigantine and 1 Cutter moved from SZ40 to SZ36
            3 Brigantines and 5 Cutters moved from SZ41 to SZ36
            2 Barques moved from SZ43 to SZ36
            5 Fusilierss and 5 Howitzers moved from Orleanais to Normandy
            1 Fusiliers and 2 Mariness moved from Andalusia to SZ53
            2 Barques, 2 Battleships, 11 Brigantines, 14 Cutters, 3 Frigates, 1 Fusiliers and 11 Mariness moved from SZ53 to SZ47
            1 Fusiliers moved from Alemtejo to SZ47
            3 Chasseurss and 1 General moved from Eturia to Rome
            1 Marines moved from Auvergne to Poitou
            1 General moved from Auvergne to Anjou
            1 General moved from Gascony to Poitou

Purchase Units - France
            France buy 1 Battleship, 1 Marines and 8 Neys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat - France
            Battle in Saxony
                France attack with 9 Cuirassierss and 1 Dragoons
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Fusiliers
                France win, taking Saxony from AustrianEmpire with 9 Cuirassierss and 1 Dragoons remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Fusiliers

Non Combat Move - France

Place Units - France
            1 Battleship placed in SZ42
            1 Marines placed in Anjou
            8 Neys placed in Orleanais

Turn Complete - France
            France collect 102 PUs; end with 102 PUs total
            Objective France destroys TUV: France met a national objective for an additional 4 PUs; end with 106 PUs

[Noll]

This is the rule I’m talking about, I think you wrote it Veqryn:

#2. Only 1 person can win, so conduct your diplomacy accordingly. If you do get backstabbed, try to be a good sport, and do not take it personally, everyone should backstab and be backstabbed eventually.
#3. No giving your capitol to a player. If your capital gets taken, and you have no chance to take it back for good, then you have have lost the game. Command your armies until they are no more, or ask to be replaced by an AI. #4. Have fun! (place your bids in a balanced fashion…diplomacy sometimes fails! Do Not be a bad sport! Suiciding yourself IS being a bad sport.).

[Veqryn]

@Noll:

This is the rule I’m talking about, I think you wrote it Veqryn:

#2. Only 1 person can win, so conduct your diplomacy accordingly. If you do get backstabbed, try to be a good sport, and do not take it personally, everyone should backstab and be backstabbed eventually.
#3. No giving your capitol to a player. If your capital gets taken, and you have no chance to take it back for good, then you have have lost the game. Command your armies until they are no more, or ask to be replaced by an AI. #4. Have fun! (place your bids in a balanced fashion…diplomacy sometimes fails! Do Not be a bad sport! Suiciding yourself IS being a bad sport.).

I don’t think i “gave” my capital to Ottomans.

The Ottomans and Russians foolishly placed their largest and most important stack of high value units within range of basically All my units.  Because I have been producing lots of cheaper units, I have numerical advantage over your high value units.  I saw a chance to deal a fatal blow to the Russians, and also a big a blow as I possibly could to Ottomans for this entire game.

Despite my lower value units, I was able to secure a near 250 TUV swing in that battle.

Now, take the save from right before my turn, and play it out another way: send everything to my capital.

I simulated this in a local game to see what would happen, and the result was worse for me.  Sure, my capital held on for a couple extra turns, but the Ottomans and Russians took the entire rest of my land, AND when the Ottomans eventually attacked me, it was THEY who secured the TUV swing in their favor, not mine.

So actually, I did the best move considering my circumstances: I went out fighting, and I fought hard.

The point of the quote above, is to stop people from saying “fuck it, I quit, and I’m giving all my stuff to player X”

I simmed things and found that attacking that stack was the most damage I could do.  If that stack had of either been bigger, or had not been in that position, then I would not have had the opportunity to kill roughly 1400 TUV and still come out of it fighting.

[Noll]

Giving 4 cities to the UK for free doesn’t look like a good strategy tho’. I think it’s more like “since I lost, I won’t let my enemies win!”

How would you feel if I gave for free cities to the Ottomans to make them win the game? That’s how I feel, so I guess it’s for the better to remove this “be a sport!” Rules.

[Noll]

And that TUV change didn’t help you. It just helped UK getting Russia’s VCs. You would have never crushed all your land forces if you didn’t think you were doomed. That’s what I think. But you’re free to play how you like. Maybe next game we can avoid ruining a 20 turn game like this.

[Gekkepop]

To be fair, Veqryn didn’t know I was about to backstab him. He was messaging me with diplomacy ideas until the very last turn.

[Veqryn]

Then keep playing to 10 VC.  There are only 18 on the map, so 10 is a majority, to which someone would have to own at least half the map by themselves in order to get.

Give UK a little GG trophy then keep playing, to 10, or to 12 or something.

Although I wasn’t sure if UK would backstab me, either this turn, or 5 rounds ago, I also thought the same about France to some extend.  I knew it would eventually come.  UK would be stupid not to attack me this turn.  And Ottomans would be stupid not to attack the Russians as soon as possible.

I think there is a very very big difference between say, France in the current game giving all their territories away to Ottomans, and Austria fighting to the bitter end as I am doing.

Consider this:
IF my stack was in my capital, and Ottomans had 2 stacks on either side of my capital.  The Ottomans would not be able to take my capital for maybe 2 more rounds, but it would definitely fall very very soon.  My income was reduced to just my convoy and capital.  Now, my forces in my capital are large enough to kill one of those 2 stacks, but not both.  IF I attack one of those stacks, my capital would fall, and I wouldn’t be able to take it back, though I would be able to still keep fighting in other areas.  IF I attacked now, I would do a lot of damage at a favorable TUV exchange.  If I waited for the enemy to attack, they would secure the TUV advantage and I would do much less damage.
What would you do?  Attack or not?  I think in all games, you would attack.

At the end of this next round, if you feel otherwise, lets reload the savegame from 2 rounds ago and we can play it all out differently.

[Gekkepop]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: Napoleonic Empires: FFA 5 Player, version: 4.0.7

Game History

Round :21

Combat Move - UnitedKingdom
            1 Marines and 1 Mortars moved from Pomerania to SZ9
            1 Battleship moved from SZ6 to SZ5
            1 Barque, 1 Marines and 1 Mortars moved from SZ9 to SZ5
            1 Marines and 1 Mortars moved from SZ5 to Lappland
            1 Brigantine moved from SZ9 to SZ5
            1 Battleship moved from SZ6 to SZ9
            1 Marines moved from Pomerania to SZ9
            1 Marines moved from SZ9 to Ostra Gotaland
            3 Barques moved from SZ6 to SZ10
            1 Fusiliers, 2 Howitzers and 3 Mariness moved from Mecklenburg to Brandenburg
            2 Horse_Artillerys and 1 Wellington moved from Hanovre to Magdeburg
                  UnitedKingdom take Magdeburg from AustrianEmpire
            2 Horse_Artillerys and 1 Wellington moved from Magdeburg to Brandenburg
            2 Howitzers moved from Hanovre to Hollande
            2 Mariness moved from Flanders to Hollande
            1 Fusiliers and 3 Mariness moved from Hanovre to Mecklenburg
            1 Cuirassiers, 3 Dragoonss and 1 Horse_Artillery moved from Minsk to Warszowa
            1 Cuirassiers, 3 Dragoonss and 1 Horse_Artillery moved from Minsk to Krakow
            3 Fusilierss moved from Severia to Kazan
            1 Dragoons moved from Kiev to Kazan
            2 Dragoonss moved from Minsk to Kazan
            1 Wellington moved from Minsk to Warszowa
            1 Dragoons moved from Minsk to Krakow
            2 Dragoonss moved from Minsk to Moscovia
            1 Fusiliers moved from Smolensk to Moscovia
            4 Artillerys, 7 Chasseurss, 8 Fusilierss, 6 Grenadierss, 5 Howitzers, 23 Mariness and 5 Mortarss moved from Novgorod to Moscovia
            2 Hussarss moved from Ingria to Moscovia
            2 Dragoonss moved from Posen to Pomerania
            1 Wellington moved from Posen to Pomerania
            1 Wellington moved from Pomerania to Prussia
            2 Dragoonss moved from Pomerania to Brandenburg
            2 Barques and 1 Brigantine moved from SZ9 to SZ10
            1 Howitzer moved from Pomerania to SZ9
            1 Marines moved from Pomerania to SZ9
            1 Howitzer and 1 Marines moved from SZ9 to Ostra Gotaland
            1 Chasseurs, 2 Cuirassierss, 4 Fusilierss and 2 Howitzers moved from Pomerania to Brandenburg
            3 Barques and 1 Brigantine moved from SZ27 to SZ29
            1 Artillery and 1 Marines moved from Vastra Gotaland to Bohus
            2 Horse_Artillerys moved from Skane to Vastra Gotaland
                  UnitedKingdom take Vastra Gotaland from AustrianEmpire
            1 Horse_Artillery moved from Vastra Gotaland to Svealand
            1 Horse_Artillery moved from Vastra Gotaland to Lappland
            1 Cutter moved from SZ35 to SZ33
            1 Brigantine, 1 Corvette and 2 Cutters moved from SZ35 to SZ29

Purchase Units - UnitedKingdom
            UnitedKingdom buy 3 Brigantines, 4 Cutters, 2 Dragoonss, 6 Fusilierss and 2 Howitzers; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat - UnitedKingdom
            UnitedKingdom creates battle in territory Posen
            Battle in Hollande
                UnitedKingdom attack with 2 Howitzers and 2 Mariness
                AustrianEmpire defend with 2 Mortella_Towers
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Posen from AustrianEmpire, taking Hollande from AustrianEmpire with 2 Mariness remaining. Battle score for attacker is -2
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 2 Howitzers
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 2 Mortella_Towers
            Battle in Ostra Gotaland
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Fusiliers, 2 Howitzers and 2 Mariness
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Fusiliers and 1 Howitzer
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Ostra Gotaland from AustrianEmpire with 1 Fusiliers, 2 Howitzers and 2 Mariness remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Fusiliers and 1 Howitzer
            Battle in Krakow
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Cuirassiers, 4 Dragoonss and 1 Horse_Artillery
                AustrianEmpire defend with 3 Dragoonss
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Krakow from AustrianEmpire with 1 Cuirassiers and 3 Dragoonss remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 1 Dragoons and 1 Horse_Artillery
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 3 Dragoonss
            Battle in SZ5
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Barque, 1 Battleship and 1 Brigantine
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Barque
                UnitedKingdom win with 1 Barque, 1 Battleship and 1 Brigantine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Barque
            Battle in Kazan
                UnitedKingdom attack with 3 Dragoonss and 3 Fusilierss
                Russia defend with 1 Artillery, 1 Chasseurs, 1 Fusiliers and 2 Generals
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Kazan from Russia with 3 Dragoonss remaining. Battle score for attacker is 2
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 3 Fusilierss
                Casualties for Russia: 1 Artillery, 1 Chasseurs and 1 Fusiliers
            Battle in Brandenburg
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Chasseurs, 2 Cuirassierss, 2 Dragoonss, 5 Fusilierss, 2 Horse_Artillerys, 4 Howitzers, 3 Mariness and 1 Wellington
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Fortress and 1 General
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Brandenburg from AustrianEmpire with 1 Chasseurs, 2 Cuirassierss, 2 Dragoonss, 5 Fusilierss, 2 Horse_Artillerys, 3 Howitzers, 3 Mariness and 1 Wellington remaining. Battle score for attacker is 1
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 1 Howitzer
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Fortress
            Battle in Lappland
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Horse_Artillery, 1 Marines and 1 Mortars
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Fusiliers
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Lappland from AustrianEmpire with 1 Marines and 1 Mortars remaining. Battle score for attacker is -1
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 1 Horse_Artillery
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Fusiliers
            Battle in Warszowa
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Cuirassiers, 3 Dragoonss, 1 Horse_Artillery and 1 Wellington
                AustrianEmpire defend with 3 Fusilierss
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Warszowa from AustrianEmpire with 1 Cuirassiers, 1 Dragoons and 1 Wellington remaining. Battle score for attacker is -5
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 2 Dragoonss and 1 Horse_Artillery
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 3 Fusilierss
            Battle in Moscovia
                UnitedKingdom attack with 4 Artillerys, 7 Chasseurss, 2 Dragoonss, 9 Fusilierss, 6 Grenadierss, 5 Howitzers, 2 Hussarss, 23 Mariness and 5 Mortarss
                Russia defend with 4 Artillerys, 1 Capital, 10 Chasseurss, 3 Cuirassierss, 14 Fortresss, 3 Fusilierss, 2 Grenadierss, 1 Horse_Artillery, 1 Howitzer, 1 Kutusov and 1 Mortella_Tower
                UnitedKingdom destroys 52PUs while taking Russia capital
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Moscovia from Russia with 4 Artillerys, 7 Chasseurss, 2 Dragoonss, 6 Grenadierss, 10 Mariness and 5 Mortarss remaining. Battle score for attacker is 64
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 9 Fusilierss, 5 Howitzers, 2 Hussarss and 13 Mariness
                Casualties for Russia: 4 Artillerys, 10 Chasseurss, 3 Cuirassierss, 14 Fortresss, 3 Fusilierss, 2 Grenadierss, 1 Horse_Artillery, 1 Howitzer, 1 Kutusov and 1 Mortella_Tower
            Battle in Svealand
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Fusiliers, 1 Horse_Artillery and 2 Mariness
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 Fusiliers
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Svealand from AustrianEmpire with 1 Fusiliers, 1 Horse_Artillery and 2 Mariness remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 1 Fusiliers
            Battle in Prussia
                UnitedKingdom attack with 1 Fusiliers, 2 Howitzers, 1 Marines and 1 Wellington
                AustrianEmpire defend with 1 General and 2 Mortella_Towers
                UnitedKingdom win, taking Prussia from AustrianEmpire with 1 Marines and 1 Wellington remaining. Battle score for attacker is -6
                Casualties for UnitedKingdom: 1 Fusiliers and 2 Howitzers
                Casualties for AustrianEmpire: 2 Mortella_Towers

Non Combat Move - UnitedKingdom
            1 Artillery and 2 Chasseurss moved from Posen to Brandenburg
            1 Fusiliers moved from Posen to Brandenburg

Place Units - UnitedKingdom
            3 Fusilierss placed in Hanovre
            1 Fusiliers and 1 Howitzer placed in Pomerania
            2 Fusilierss and 1 Howitzer placed in Minsk
            2 Dragoonss placed in Ingria
            3 Brigantines and 4 Cutters placed in SZ29

Turn Complete - UnitedKingdom
            UnitedKingdom collect 111 PUs; end with 111 PUs total
            Objective UnitedKingdom destroys TUV: UnitedKingdom met a national objective for an additional 4 PUs; end with 115 PUs

[Gekkepop]

UK has captured 8 VCs and claims victory! Not sure if you need to hold until the end of turn on this map (game notes seem to indicate you don’t) but it seems unlikely anything will be recaptured anyway.

[Noll]

Cg to Gekke.

Veqryn I’m not going to add much more, you wouldnt have done anything that you did in the last two turns if not for sacrificing and letting another player win. Of the 8 cities he got, 4 were convenientely deserted by Austria, and two more were taken after Austria suicided his troops against Russia to give him the chances at getting it.

So you say it was all casual (even tho’ I warned you about it at least 3 times in the last 8 rounds).

I say that I don’t believe you and that this behaviour ruined a game that might have been won by UK without such cheap and anti sportive play (from your part, not Gekke ones ).

If you all want to start a new one I hope nobody does something like this because he’s om the loosing side.

[Gekkepop]

Actually his abandoning the VCs was quite annoying to me, I had to take out all of his spread out units individually or risk losing one of the VCs. It was already too late at that point though.

[Veqryn]

@Noll:

Cg to Gekke.

Veqryn I’m not going to add much more, you wouldnt have done anything that you did in the last two turns if not for sacrificing and letting another player win. Of the 8 cities he got, 4 were convenientely deserted by Austria, and two more were taken after Austria suicided his troops against Russia to give him the chances at getting it.

So you say it was all casual (even tho’ I warned you about it at least 3 times in the last 8 rounds).

I say that I don’t believe you and that this behaviour ruined a game that might have been won by UK without such cheap and anti sportive play (from your part, not Gekke ones ).

If you all want to start a new one I hope nobody does something like this because he’s om the loosing side.

I have been aware of how I left Sweden, Berlin, and Prussia basically open to UK for this entire game.  I was a necessary evil in order to convince the two of you to fight Ottomans and Russians, or else I would have fallen a lot sooner.  I thought getting you two to stop your war and attack them was one of the coolest things I’ve done this game.

You warned me, and I was taking those warnings very seriously until you backstabbed me.  I knew that if we could hold the alliance together long enough, Russia would fall.  And after russia fell, Gekk would have no way to fight the ottomans since I would be in the way.  At that point, I expected a stab.  So i had planned to help France fight the UK around that point in time.

Sadly, the French stab happened long before we could reach that state of affairs, so I never had a chance to take moscow.

I’m sure that no matter I attacked the Ottoman/Russian stack or not, UK would have declared war on me within a few rounds so that he could take these territories. I bet that you would claim that I left them open for him in that case as well…. despite the fact that they were open as part of the 3 way alliance I made with you two, that you broke.

[lexgreat]

Ah well, congrats to GB.

For the record: I dont buy that “I would have backstabbed Austria” stuff for a second, and I dont say that as someone who had a chance of winning this. What happened goes pretty much against the “suicide is a no-go thing”. Having said that, it can be argued and justified back and forth, of course. Everyone will walk away with an opinion, thats good enough for me.