yes you do. If you liberate, then you will collect income at end of turn, so if somebody whacks your Capital again before you can spend it, you lose the money again.
Should you liberate France?
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The main problem is one of logic. The UK or America is usually always in a position to take Normandy and Southern France. Being on the coast and farther away from Germany and Italy’s major factories, they are almost impossible to fortify to prevent America from taking it if they want it. Fortifying Normandy and S.France means no offensive (or a weak one) against Russia.
As the Allies, if you are in a position to take France and hold it, it means your assault force is enough to hold off West Germany and Italy, which means you should probably just take West Germany or Italy. Otherwise you’re liberating Paris and turning around and handing a fistful of IPC back over to the Axis.
As America, Normandy’s factory is supremely important because it allows you to produce naval units in Sea Zone 110. This allows you to directly protect the UK (if they are in a weak defensive state) or produce capital ships for bombardment against Germany if you need them. You can effectively take Germany completely out of the water. I have had my navy ready to take Italy in the Med and successfully stopped a German re-invasion of the UK by performing Operation Instant Navy in SZ110, allowing me to not have to split my naval forces to defend the UK.
As far as IPC gain is concerned, that’s a no-brainer. With the rules in regards to occupying friendly territories and gaining their IPC, you really only stand to lose IPC as the Allies. As I posited in the FAQ thread, I think you could execute an Axis strategy that involved taking France and not capturing Normandy and Southern France. In the long run, you lose out on 5 IPC a turn for the brief time before an Allied power almost inevitably invades those two countries, but you save the IPC from not suffering casualties taking those two countries.
And if you’re worried about those forces coming back to attack you, the forces you didn’t use attacking them are the same ones you’ll use defending. You can always throw 1-2 infantry at those two and strafe them with aircraft or have Italy help. Altogether those two countries only account for 2 infantry and 2 artillery. Since they’re French units they can’t jointly attack you alongside another nation. The worst they can do is suicide against you to try to soften you up for a UK or US offensive.
I think in the short run it looks like a bad strategy but in the long run you ultimately deny 5 IPC and 2 minor factories to the Americans (most likely). Those 4 troops that you’re possibly leaving in the territories more than make up for the 6 tanks that America will be pumping out every turn once they land. Since the Americans won’t have factories in Europe they’ll need to spend more on transports at 7 IPC apiece. Without having to spread forces occupying Normandy and Southern France (and possibly moving them back) you can instead concentrate on fortifying Holland or West Germany.
If I’m Axis in my next global game I’ll definitely try it out.
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When does the fac tip over when u lib france ? I mean, can US lib france and still build those 3 last unit, in the same turn ? Or does the fac become french right away ?
PPP
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French right away…
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I have liberated France exactly once, myself, and never seen it happen by an opponent of mine.
The reason I did it was not for tactical or strategic purposes, it was to demoralize my opponent. America moved in with a large army, England reinforced with a large airforce and Italy/W. Germany couldn’t do anything about it. He conceeded on Italy’s turn (he suicided against it, then figured W. Germany didnt have odds to win.) He was one turn from a VC win in the Pacific, if I remember right (and it’s questionable, it was under Alpha 2 rules, so it was a while ago.)
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Realistically the US wants both ICs in Normandy and S.France to remain under US control. Unless a NO makes it more viable to get Paris liberated, 6 Armor a round from the US becomes more valuable for the Allies than 4 French Inf and only 2 Armor a round from them after the fact.
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Yes, a penalty system for the United States / England for being in France until France is liberated maybe?
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Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).
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A thought that occurred was that maybe you could not use the IC’s on French territory?
So, Japan builds on on FIC and India liberates, they can’t use it. It’s still there, but it cannot be used.
Likewise
Normandy/S. France couldn’t be used by England/USA.It wouldn’t really punish the allies for retaking land, but it also would encourage them to liberate Paris to use the complexes again.
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Another thought is that the IC’s in Normandy and S.France always have 6 damage counters on them if under Allied control and Paris has not been liberated.
It doesn’t completely solve the problem, but it would cost you the price of 4 Armor to place 3 - every turn which is nothing to bat an eye at.
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Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).
This is really cool.
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I could liberate france in a game where U got a US IC in both finland and norway, while spending alot against japan, while being able to hold paris.
if not all of these condtions are met, then I would rather have the US produce in normandy and SFrance.
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I don’t know how you guys can get enough dudes to liberate france… without losing in the pacific.
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I didn’t mean I had ever pulled it off, I just told what kind of situation I felt it would be more likely, and my group prefer to play 14 VC, so it is not that bad to “loose” in the pacific.
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Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).
This is really cool.
Agreed, on the condition that the new French units were held in the Mobilization Zone until the actual ‘Mobilize New Units’ phase of the French turn.
Otherwise, you’d have French tanks and naval units with ‘haste’ being pumped out of those factories (i.e., they can attack on the same turn in which they are built)… which would feel very strange in comparison with the pace of the rest of the game, and give the French units what is, in essence, an A&A superpower.
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Or the IC’s can only build French Units (paid for by the owner of the territory).
This is really cool.
Agreed, on the condition that the new French units were held in the Mobilization Zone until the actual ‘Mobilize New Units’ phase of the French turn.
Otherwise, you’d have French tanks and naval units with ‘haste’ being pumped out of those factories (i.e., they can attack on the same turn in which they are built)… which would feel very strange in comparison with the pace of the rest of the game, and give the French units what is, in essence, an A&A superpower.
Never looked at it like that - you have a good point and I do like your idea that the units are stuck in the mobilization zone until the end of France’s turn. However on the flip side, it makes Germany/Italy really defend those territories instead of stacking in Paris/N.Italy to counter-attack.
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@Cow:
I don’t know how you guys can get enough dudes to liberate france… without losing in the pacific.
Generally happens when Germany is obstinate and won’t conceed defeat.
I could see French only units - but in that case, shouldnt the Allies do nothing but liberate French territories? Would really help out Italy, as far as I could see.
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Although my suggestion has its flaws, it still stands that liberating Paris seems ill-advised for the Allies in 99% of all situations - the sole situation being the need to take a VC away from an impending German victory in Europe.
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I saw don’t liberate unless you are sure you can hold it without those 4 frenchmen. Those guys should be icing on the cake. The worst thing in the world for the allies is handing over more money to Germany. The worst thing for the Axis is France purchasing units.
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Spendo02/Yavid,
Understood, but how can we fix that problem? Churchill and Roosevelt would never avoid liberating Paris just because they’d magically lose control of cities they already liberated - right?
So I was thinking, what if Allied nations could only liberate French territories, they can never take possession? Makes sniping Madagascar kinda worth it - sometimes (like if you can retreat the transport later!), means taking the NO for N. Africa is no longer tantamount to giving America more money, etc. Also helps Germany since the allies are not producing in Normandy/Vichy France.
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@Cmdr:
Spendo02/Yavid,
Understood, but how can we fix that problem? Churchill and Roosevelt would never avoid liberating Paris just because they’d magically lose control of cities they already liberated - right?
So I was thinking, what if Allied nations could only liberate French territories, they can never take possession? Makes sniping Madagascar kinda worth it - sometimes (like if you can retreat the transport later!), means taking the NO for N. Africa is no longer tantamount to giving America more money, etc. Also helps Germany since the allies are not producing in Normandy/Vichy France.
But this wouldn’t fix the problem of giving Germany the full French income again next turn.
An alternative fix would be that the Allies can decide how much income they give back to the liberated nation (be it france, UK or whoever, with the minimum of the IPC of the liberated capital), the total amount of money on a side will remain the same.
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