Ha. Now we pissed off the UFO’s !
What if U.S. invaded Soviet Union?
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advanced farther, captured more enemy prisoners, and liberated more territory in less time than any other army in history
I think you mean AMERICAN history.
Zhukov basically liberated Moscow to Berlin. Probably captured, killed, and commanded WAY more troops and was probably over all more succesful.
That said. the quote is basically entirely WRONG. If you consider - that it was eisenhower who was in charge, and therefore patton’s success should fall under his umbrella.
The only arguement you have is the “less time” factor.
Even with fresh troops, and SS backups… a Patton blitz from Berlin to moscow, would have taken a VERY long time. And he is just as susceptible to death as everyone else. His troops were even weary of him…
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You can’t impose democracy onto a people….doesn’t work…it has to be grown by the people themselves…and Russia had spies everywhere, so nuke or no nuke, they had the advantage…And I guarantee that if we had, we all would not be here now…and why invade when we haven’t finished off Japan completely? Japan and Russian end hostilities and join sides? No thanks…
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That said… American industrial might was at it’s all time high… and the populations were the same - save Russia had just lost 10 or so million men, and was full of warn torn cities.
With absolutely NO ability of the Russians to attack mainland USA… the USA would have kept on keeping on, building bombs, and killing Ruskies.
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How come that many of you count the Germans in?!..I really don´t think that they would have joint the Allies to fight OFF the Russians, maybe to the end of their borders but not all along the way again to Moscow…The reason is gone.
To count the Waffen SS in would be a nice try ,but remeber that the majority was allready Alien forces from the european countries and white russia… -
I think you could add at least 100000 Germans/anti communist troops and officers. There are always those in losing armies who do not want to stop fighting, whether because they like it or because they know no other life. As for the SS and any foreign units they would have signed up to avoid reprisals or execution.More could have been coerced. I believe experienced German troops would have made a difference, but like others here think Moscow is a long way away from Berlin. Any attack may have faltered before the end, but may have made for a fairer world for those whose lands were “liberated”.
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That said… American industrial might was at it’s all time high… and the populations were the same - save Russia had just lost 10 or so million men, and was full of warn torn cities.
With absolutely NO ability of the Russians to attack mainland USA… the USA would have kept on keeping on, building bombs, and killing Ruskies.
A lot easier for the Soviets to come through Alaska and into Canada as they were headed to Japan after all. In the end the USA would have had only 49 stars on the flag today and Ambassador Sarah Palinskaya would be sitting in the USSR’s embassy to this day.
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Would that bother you?
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Not at all. I live in Southern Ontario though which might have ended up as the 50th star in that scenario.
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50 is a nice round number, i agree. If they had failed to add Alaska then would have had to find another. Mexico again?
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If the Allies attacked on VE day they would of likely had a very bad time of it being outnumbered quite badly and outgunned at least on the ground. However if the Allies waited until they could pull the majority of their forces out of the Pacific (3-4 months after VJ Day) then that is a whole nother kettle of fish.
With the number of Allied aircraft committed in the Pacific recomitted to the skies of Europe the Soviets would of been badly out numbered in the air. Add to that the likely air raids on the Soviet oil fields all of sudden its not such a pretty picture. I have no illusions that it wouldnt of been a hard slog to Moscow but it would of been possible with enough preparation. You add to Allied Forces the millions of German soldiers who wanted revenge for the notorius acts committed by Soviet forces and it begins to look a whole lot brighter for the Allies. With the likes of Von Manstein and Guederian working with Patton and Eisenhower with all the resources the free world had to offer it would likely turn out in the allies favour.
In my opinion it wouldnt of been long until E-Series German tanks were advancing on the great plains of the USSR backed up by Mustangs and Spitfire’s keeping the skies clear over head. Its hard to think of the Soviets beating that back. Also throw into the mix the oncoming jet age, German designed tanks being built in U.S factories and the atomic bomb the Soviets would of had their hands full.
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With the likes of Von Manstein and Guederian working with Patton and Eisenhower with all the resources the free world had to offer it would likely turn out in the allies favour.
Not something that would have happened. When the Germans signed their first surrender under the supervision of the western Allies (they signed a second one a day later under Soviet supervision), Eisenhower didn’t even enter the room until the German officers had signed the document – and even then, it was only to ask in a cold tone of voice for confirmation that they had done so. Eisenhower had no sympathies for the Wehrmacht whatsoever (particularly after he had visited one of the liberated Nazi death camps), and he would have been appalled at the idea of teaming up with the army that had fought for Nazi Germany and launching a Germano-American campaign against the Allied country which had defeated Hitler on the Eastern Front. The idea that he would have participated in such a venture is as much of a fantasy as Himmler’s line in the movie “Downfall” in which has asks an aide, in complete seriousness, “When I meet Eisenhower, should I shake his hand or give the Nazi salute?” If Himmler had actually tried to see Eisenhower, Ike would have had him arrested on the spot by some MPs without letting him get within half a mile of his office.
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I did not know Ike felt like that.
Do you know if MacArthur already hated communists or if that came later? -
@CWO:
With the likes of Von Manstein and Guederian working with Patton and Eisenhower with all the resources the free world had to offer it would likely turn out in the allies favour.
Not something that would have happened. When the Germans signed their first surrender under the supervision of the western Allies (they signed a second one a day later under Soviet supervision), Eisenhower didn’t even enter the room until the German officers had signed the document – and even then, it was only to ask in a cold tone of voice for confirmation that they had done so. Eisenhower had no sympathies for the Wehrmacht whatsoever (particularly after he had visited one of the liberated Nazi death camps), and he would have been appalled at the idea of teaming up with the army that had fought for Nazi Germany and launching a Germano-American campaign against the Allied country which had defeated Hitler on the Eastern Front. The idea that he would have participated in such a venture is as much of a fantasy as Himmler’s line in the movie “Downfall” in which has asks an aide, in complete seriousness, “When I meet Eisenhower, should I shake his hand or give the Nazi salute?” If Himmler had actually tried to see Eisenhower, Ike would have had him arrested on the spot by some MPs without letting him get within half a mile of his office.
Nice Post CWO Marc, the only thing I want to add on, to be a little more specific, is that only the German Wehrmacht surrenderd unconditionally.
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@CWO:
With the likes of Von Manstein and Guederian working with Patton and Eisenhower with all the resources the free world had to offer it would likely turn out in the allies favour.
Not something that would have happened. When the Germans signed their first surrender under the supervision of the western Allies (they signed a second one a day later under Soviet supervision), Eisenhower didn’t even enter the room until the German officers had signed the document – and even then, it was only to ask in a cold tone of voice for confirmation that they had done so. Eisenhower had no sympathies for the Wehrmacht whatsoever (particularly after he had visited one of the liberated Nazi death camps), and he would have been appalled at the idea of teaming up with the army that had fought for Nazi Germany and launching a Germano-American campaign against the Allied country which had defeated Hitler on the Eastern Front. The idea that he would have participated in such a venture is as much of a fantasy as Himmler’s line in the movie “Downfall” in which has asks an aide, in complete seriousness, "When I meet Eisenhower, should I shake his hand or give the Nazi salute?" If Himmler had actually tried to see Eisenhower, Ike would have had him arrested on the spot by some MPs without letting him get within half a mile of his office.
How does that play out with Operation Paperclip>?
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Do not know that one Garg. Is that when you mess up and only order one lorry load when you needed two, or when you accidentally hurt yourself with one?
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@wittman:
Do you know if MacArthur already hated communists or if that came later?
I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s interesting that you mention MacArthur because there’s a certain resemblance between him and some of the things related to Patton that mattbiernat mentions in his reply #16 above. Patton and MacArthur could both be brilliant when the were at their best (which they weren’t always, an example of which being MacArthur’s botched defense of the Philippines in the hours immediately following Pearl Harbor), but they were also towering egotists with a love of publicity and a very high opinion of their own abilities. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, since it’s important for a general to have self-confidence, but in their case it sometimes affected their judgment – for instance in the area of national policy, which in the United States is supposed to be set by the civil government rather than by the military. I hadn’t previously heard about Patton’s reported wish to “re-arm the German army and sent them against the Russians along with the U.S. troops” but his advocacy of such an idea would fall roughly into the same category as MacArthur’s hardline attitude towards China during the Korean War, which brought him into conflict with his civilian and military superiors and eventually led to his dismissal from command.
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How does that play out with Operation Paperclip>?
The purpose of Operation Paperclip was to locate German scientists and bring them over to the West, not to team up with the remainder of the Wehrmacht to invade the Soviet Union.
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I think Garg’s point was the US could turn a blind eye if it needed to.
If they wanted to attack Russia they probably would have used those with the knowledge of the difficulties involved: the German commanders, Nazis or not.
Obviously not Himmler(who is dead and a party official). -
@wittman:
I think Garg’s point was the US could turn a blind eye if it needed to.
Certainly. For instance I just recently read (in John Dower’s book Embracing Defeat) that US occupation authorities in Japan granted immunity from war crimes prosecution to members of Japan’s notorious Unit 731 in exchange for the data they had collected during their human experiments on chemical and bacteriological warfare. And it’s quite true – as Operation Paperclip illustrates – that in 1945 the US was already looking beyond its wartime alliance with the USSR towards a postwar world in which the United States and the Soviet Union were the most powerful pieces left on the international chessboard, and thus potentially each other’s most dangerous enemies. My point is simply that it’s highly improbable that the US would have launched an invasion of the USSR in (or soon after 1945), and even more improbable that they would have done so by teaming up with the former army of the former Nazi regime which the Allies had been demonizing for years and which had been responsible for the combat deaths of thousands upon thousands of American boys since late 1941.
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I agree. Politically would have been a disaster. Families wanted their boys home too.
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