Germany vs. Soviets State of War when reinforcing "Friendly conquered soviet Ts"

[Omega1759]

Say Italy takes Baltic states on I3, on G4, can Germany reinforce this “friendly territory” and chose not to declare war on the Soviet Union (e.g., no attractive target, better to collect the 5 IPC NO a 4th time)?

[ghr2]

Since Germany and Italy are politically locked like UK/anzac are, whom ever one power declares war on, the other is automatically at war with them aswell.

[Omega1759]

@ghr2:

Since Germany and Italy are politically locked like UK/anzac are, whom ever one power declares war on, the other is automatically at war with them aswell.

Thank you for the answer. In the rules, I find the language linking Anzac / UK, can you point me to where you read this for Italy/Germany?

[Omega1759]

From the 3.9 on Harrisdesign forum:

“If another power declares war on your power, your power is at war immediately, but only with the power that declared war on it. You must wait until your turn to make any declarations of war on other powers that were enabled by that declaration. For example, if Germany declares war on the United States, the United States is immediately at war with Germany, but it must wait until its turn to declare war on Italy. Of course, the United States may also declare war on Germany on its turn, but this is technically unnecessary, as the two powers are already at war.”

This indicates no link between Italy and Germany.

[ghr2]

Well if its not because germany is automatically at war, it must be from the fact that germany must be at war with russia in order to even move into  originally russian terr.  Sort of like how Russia can’t put units in india or china without being at war with japan.  Or How US cant land units in siberia without both powers being at war with japan.

[Omega1759]

@ghr2:

Well if its not because germany is automatically at war, it must be from the fact that germany must be at war with russia in order to even move into  originally russian terr.  Sort of like how Russia can’t put units in india or china without being at war with japan.  Or How US cant land units in siberia without both powers being at war with japan.

That’s the rule I’m worried about, but I don’t see anything that prevents me from doing this here is what I am reading (Page 21 of Europe Rulebook):

“Land units can moved into any friendly or friently neutral territory, including territories that were captured in the current turn. It can’t move into a hostile territory (not even one that contains no combat units, but is enemy-controlled). If your power isn’t at war, you can’t moved into territories belonging to another friendly power or a friendly neutral.”

Criteria:

1. Germany is at war
2. A territory controlled by Italy is a friendly territory (reference page 8)

Therefore, Germany ought to be able to reinforce a friendly Italian territory (original Soviet), without entering a state of war with the Soviet Union.

I’m open to be proven wrong, but I’m not seeing it yet.

[kcdzim]

Ghr is incorrect.  Germany and Italy are not diplomatically tied like Anzac/uk and Germany is free to reinforce any Italian territory regardless of who originally controlled it, just like any other friendly territory.

[Omega1759]

@kcdzim:

Ghr is incorrect.�  Germany and Italy are not diplomatically tied like Anzac/uk and Germany is free to reinforce any Italian territory regardless of who originally controlled it, just like any other friendly territory.

Great, it’s a good option to have. If Italy can opens Eastern Poland and Baltic States on I3, I don’t see why I would declare war on the Soviet Union and lose 5 IPC in the process (the Russian fleet is stuck, the Vyborg / Karelia route is subject to counter attack), there would probably be no sizeable territorial gains to obtain anyway.

[KaLeu]

I have a somewhat related question: in a theoretical situation, if Japan is at war with the Soviet Union while Germany isn’t, and Germany lands a plane in Japanese-occupied territory, does that imply that the Soviet Union can no longer attack that territory? The rules state: “A power can’t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.”. This could even happen before round 4, so that the Soviet Union couldn’t declare war on Germany.

[kcdzim]

@Herr:

I have a somewhat related question: in a theoretical situation, if Japan is at war with the Soviet Union while Germany isn’t, and Germany lands a plane in Japanese-occupied territory, does that imply that the Soviet Union can no longer attack that territory? The rules state: “A power can�t attack a territory controlled by or containing units belonging to a power with which it is not at war.”. This could even happen before round 4, so that the Soviet Union couldn’t declare war on Germany.

Yes.  Japanese planes would be temporarily shielded by landing in german territories prior to the Soviets being able to declare war.

[KaLeu]

Thanks. What I had in mind was a different situation however: Japan would have conquered a Soviet territory, and then Germany would land a plane there while Germany was not at war with the Soviet Union. The conquered area is now an area containing units belonging to a power with which the Soviet Union is not at war, so by the rules, the Soviet Union can’t counterattack.
It’s not a big thing with the Soviet Union really, because I can’t see a way for the Germans to get a plane over there in time. But there may be a problem with China. According to the rules, China can’t declare war on a European Axis power unless one of those powers declares war on it first. So when that never happens, China can’t attack a Japanese-occupied territory that contains a German or Italian unit.

I know it’s a bit of a silly loophole and I apologize for derailing a thread that made sense otherwise, but if I go by the book, I think it’s true.

[kcdzim]

@Herr:

Thanks. What I had in mind was a different situation however: Japan would have conquered a Soviet territory, and then Germany would land a plane there while Germany was not at war with the Soviet Union. The conquered area is now an area containing units belonging to a power with which the Soviet Union is not at war, so by the rules, the Soviet Union can’t counterattack.
It’s not a big thing with the Soviet Union really, because I can’t see a way for the Germans to get a plane over there in time. But there may be a problem with China. According to the rules, China can’t declare war on a European Axis power unless one of those powers declares war on it first. So when that never happens, China can’t attack a Japanese-occupied territory that contains a German or Italian unit.

I know it’s a bit of a silly loophole and I apologize for derailing a thread that made sense otherwise, but if I go by the book, I think it’s true.

Per the Global Rule FAQ located here:  http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4278

“China may declare war on a European Axis power if that power moves units into a territory into which Chinese units are allowed to move.”

no loophole, no problem.

[KaLeu]

Thank you!

[Kreuzfeld]

@Omega1759:

@kcdzim:

Ghr is incorrect.� � Germany and Italy are not diplomatically tied like Anzac/uk and Germany is free to reinforce any Italian territory regardless of who originally controlled it, just like any other friendly territory.

Great, it’s a good option to have. If Italy can opens Eastern Poland and Baltic States on I3, I don’t see why I would declare war on the Soviet Union and lose 5 IPC in the process (the Russian fleet is stuck, the Vyborg / Karelia route is subject to counter attack), there would probably be no sizeable territorial gains to obtain anyway.

the russians can still counterattack, the russians can declare war on germany on the next ussr turn, the only advantage you do get as germany is that you get the NO, BUT you lose the ability to attack russian troops and landareas, so not always a good choise

[Omega1759]

@Kreuzfeld:

@Omega1759:

@kcdzim:

Ghr is incorrect.� � Germany and Italy are not diplomatically tied like Anzac/uk and Germany is free to reinforce any Italian territory regardless of who originally controlled it, just like any other friendly territory.

Great, it’s a good option to have. If Italy can opens Eastern Poland and Baltic States on I3, I don’t see why I would declare war on the Soviet Union and lose 5 IPC in the process (the Russian fleet is stuck, the Vyborg / Karelia route is subject to counter attack), there would probably be no sizeable territorial gains to obtain anyway.

the russians can still counterattack, the russians can declare war on germany on the next ussr turn, the only advantage you do get as germany is that you get the NO, BUT you lose the ability to attack russian troops and landareas, so not always a good choise

Always good to have the option to do it though…