T02 - Gargantua (Allies + 7) vs. soundcrapscent (Axis)

[Gargantua]

Ok,

I’ll request an official review, to figure out what my options are.

Thank you for your patience.

[DarthMaximus]

I’ll look into this.

[DarthMaximus]

I’m going to have to rule with soundcrescent on this one.  The purchases and combat moves must stay.  If you can do something in non-com then go ahead, otherwise just play on with the turn as is.

[Gargantua]

I don’t understand why the purchases cannot change?  I can see the arguement for the combat move.  I already acknowledging the importance of maintaining this inconsequential battle.  It will be so.

But I need some more clarity on the purchase issue?  The bold reality is I wouldn’t have built 2 fighters, if I had -known- I couldn’t place them on the carriers.

The balance of the game rides on this issue.

As no dice have been rolled on SC’s turn, unless he’s -locking- his turn in as well, there is no reason this adjustment shouldn’t be considered valid or reasonable.

If he does not -lock- his turn in, then he is acknowleding that it is still the U.K’s turn as the Italian turn is wholly invalidated.  And without a change to the battle in Northwest Europe, this slight has then occurred on my turn, and is in rule error, but can be repaired accordingly with purchase adjustments.

Please consider my appeal and final comments.

[DarthMaximus]

I don’t think lack of knowledge of a rule necessarily warrants a turn redo.  I also have no way of knowing who knows what rule and who doesn’t.  While its clear you weren’t trying anything funny with your purchase, it is possible to make a purchase, see something happen, and then say “Oh I didn’t know….” and then try and alter your purchase to gain an adv.  Its why I first let the two players try to come up with a solution since they have a better feel for the game.  But I simply can’t authorize turn redo’s, b/c I can end up with a game where someone intentionally trys to game the system and get a redo and say  “But Gargantua got a redo, why can’t I?  I didn’t know you needed a dd to prevent a sub sneak attack.  I need a turn redo.”

Would that person get a redo?  I don’t think so.

If it is a make or break thing in your game, maybe SC will reconsider or will allow you to spend just those 20 ipcs differently, but I don’t think I can set a precendent for turn redo in this case.

[soundcrescent]

I truly believe you missed that point of the rule and did not try out intentionally the combat move.
Nevertheless, we are in a tournament, and in this case you cannot do again the whole British turn. If you win in the end, your victory must be spotlessly clean without any little advantage.
I cannot figure out what your tactic would have been, and still don’t understand why you say that the balance of the game rides on this issue. I am very curious about this point and hope you will let me know in the end what you had in your mind. As far as I know the two fighters are going to be useful almost in the same way with some adjustment in noncombat move. I remind you that you cannot place the two planes on the Amercan carrier, but you can place them on a British carrier.
Finally, if you want to change the position of land troops and transport I have to check my Italian turn. If you move only warships and planes, you can do also the American turn. And do not forget the 3 damage in Norway.

[Gargantua]

I’ll proceed tomorrow with a revised British NCM, and you can post italy again, it probably being the same.

Thank you for your patience everyone. :)

And yes Sound Crescent, more than happy to answer all your questions, at the end. :D

[Gargantua]

I will be posting today.  Yesterday was too busy! :S

[Gargantua]

I made as simple adjustments as possible.

File attached.

Please confirm/redo your Italian turn, and I will proceed with Americans as quickly as possible.

[soundcrescent]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :5

Purchase Units - Italians
            Italians buy 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Non Combat Move - Italians
            6 infantry moved from Italy to France
            1 armour moved from Italy to Germany

Place Units - Italians
            3 infantry placed in Italy

Turn Complete - Italians
            Italians collect 9 PUs; end with 9 PUs total
                Turn Summary: Missing refresh header after login
            Post Turn Summary to AxisAndAllies.org success = false

Territory Summary for Italians :

France : 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 fighter and 11 infantry
    Germany : 1 armour
    Italy : 1 aaGun, 1 factory and 3 infantry
    Ukraine : 1 infantry

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 29 / 49
    Russians : 18 / 19
    Japanese : 44 / 60
    British : 33 / 33
    Italians : 9 / 9
    Chinese : 1 / 0
    Americans : 44 / 54

[Gargantua]

Ok,

I just edited American IPC’s from 54 to 51, spent 3 to repair Norway.

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :5

Turn Complete - Chinese

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :5

Turn Complete - Americans
            Americans collect 44 PUs; end with 44 PUs total
            Objective 3: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 49 PUs
            Objective 4: Americans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 54 PUs

[soundcrescent]

Test summary from TripleA 15:17:02

[soundcrescent]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Germans
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Germans player Changing PUs for Germans from 49 to 40
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            Germans buy 1 aaGun, 3 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Germans
            1 infantry moved from East Poland to Eastern Ukraine
            1 fighter moved from Karelia S.S.R. to Eastern Ukraine
            1 bomber moved from Germany to Eastern Ukraine
            2 infantry moved from Germany to Poland
            1 bomber and 1 fighter moved from France to Poland
            1 fighter moved from Karelia S.S.R. to Poland
            1 armour moved from Karelia S.S.R. to Archangel
                  Germans take Archangel from Russians
            1 armour moved from Archangel to Karelia S.S.R.
            Game Loaded
                Japanese are now being played by: Human
                Germans are now being played by: Human
                British are now being played by: Human
                Russians are now being played by: Human
                Italians are now being played by: Human
                Americans are now being played by: Human
                Chinese are now being played by: Human

Combat - Germans
            Battle in Eastern Ukraine
                Germans attack with 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry
                Russians defend with 1 infantry
                    Germans roll dice for 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Eastern Ukraine, round 1 :  2/3 hits
                    Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Eastern Ukraine, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Eastern Ukraine
                Germans win, taking Eastern Ukraine from Russians with 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
                Germans win with 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in Poland
                Germans attack with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry
                British defend with 1 infantry
                    Germans roll dice for 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Poland, round 1 :  3/5 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 infantry in Poland, round 1 :  0/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the British lost in Poland
                Germans win, taking Poland from British with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
                Germans win with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
                Casualties for British: 1 infantry
            Recording Battle Statistics

Non Combat Move - Germans
            1 fighter moved from Eastern Ukraine to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 bomber moved from Eastern Ukraine to Germany
            1 bomber and 1 fighter moved from Poland to France
            1 fighter moved from Poland to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 infantry moved from Belorussia to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 aaGun and 1 infantry moved from Baltic States to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 armour moved from East Poland to Karelia S.S.R.
            3 infantry moved from East Poland to Ukraine
            2 infantry moved from Czechoslovakia Hungary to Bulgaria Romania
            1 aaGun moved from Germany to Poland
            1 armour moved from Germany to Czechoslovakia Hungary
            1 armour moved from Germany to France
            2 infantry moved from France to Germany
            1 infantry moved from Northwestern Europe to Germany
            1 infantry moved from East Poland to Belorussia
            Game Loaded
                Japanese are now being played by: Human
                Germans are now being played by: Human
                British are now being played by: Human
                Russians are now being played by: Human
                Italians are now being played by: Human
                Chinese are now being played by: Human
                Americans are now being played by: Human

Place Units - Germans
            1 aaGun, 3 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry placed in Germany
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Germans player Adding units owned by PlayerID named:Germans to Karelia S.S.R.: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode

Turn Complete - Germans
            Germans collect 35 PUs; end with 35 PUs total
            Objective 1: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 40 PUs
            Objective 2: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 45 PUs
            Objective 3: Germans met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 50 PUs

Territory Summary for Germans :

Archangel : 1 flag,    Baltic States : 1 flag,    Belorussia : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Czechoslovakia Hungary : 2 armour
    East Poland : 1 flag, 1 artillery and 2 infantry
    France : 1 armour, 1 bomber and 1 fighter
    Germany : 1 aaGun, 3 armour, 3 artilleries, 1 bomber, 1 factory and 16 infantry
    Karelia S.S.R. : 1 flag, 1 aaGun, 3 armour, 3 artilleries, 1 factory, 2 fighters and 17 infantry
    Eastern Ukraine : 1 flag, 1 infantry
    Poland : 1 aaGun and 2 infantry
    Bulgaria Romania : 2 infantry
    Ukraine : 1 flag, 3 armour, 2 artilleries and 16 infantry

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 35 / 50
    Russians : 15 / 19
    Japanese : 44 / 60
    British : 30 / 33
    Italians : 9 / 9
    Chinese : 1 / 0
    Americans : 44 / 54

[soundcrescent]

Have you forgotten again our war?

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 4 artilleries and 1 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            1 infantry moved from Russia to Archangel
                  Russians take Archangel from Germans
            1 infantry moved from Russia to Eastern Ukraine
            1 artillery moved from Russia to Eastern Ukraine
            1 infantry moved from Novosibirsk to Evenki National Okrug
                  Russians take Evenki National Okrug from Japanese
            1 submarine moved from 34 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Eastern Ukraine
                Russians attack with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 infantry
                    Russians roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Eastern Ukraine, round 1 :  0/2 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Eastern Ukraine, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Eastern Ukraine
                1 artillery owned by the Russians retreated to Russia
                Germans win with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -3
                Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry
            Battle in 37 Sea Zone
                Russians attack with 1 submarine
                Japanese defend with 1 battleship and 3 transports
                    Russians roll dice for 1 submarine in 37 Sea Zone, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Japanese
                    Japanese roll dice for 1 battleship and 3 transports in 37 Sea Zone, round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    1 submarine owned by the Russians lost in 37 Sea Zone
                Japanese win with 1 battleship and 3 transports remaining. Battle score for attacker is -6
                Casualties for Russians: 1 submarine
            Recording Battle Statistics

Non Combat Move - Russians
            1 artillery moved from Russia to Caucasus
            1 armour moved from Russia to Caucasus
            1 armour moved from Russia to Caucasus
            9 infantry moved from India to Persia

Place Units - Russians
            1 infantry placed in Russia
            4 artilleries placed in Caucasus

Turn Complete - Russians
            Russians collect 18 PUs; end with 18 PUs total
            Objective 1: Russians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 23 PUs
            1 unit repaired.

[Gargantua]

losing all my small battles in western russia at double odds is becoming extremely tiresome lol…

[soundcrescent]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - Japanese
            Japanese buy 3 armour, 1 artillery, 10 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 4 PUs;

Combat Move - Japanese
            1 armour, 1 artillery and 7 infantry moved from Burma to India
                  Japanese take India from British
            1 artillery moved from Burma to India
            1 armour moved from Yunnan to India

Combat - Japanese
            Recording Battle Statistics

Non Combat Move - Japanese
            1 transport moved from 61 Sea Zone to 62 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Japan to 62 Sea Zone
            1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 62 Sea Zone to 63 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 1 infantry moved from 63 Sea Zone to Soviet Far East
            2 infantry moved from Borneo to 49 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 49 Sea Zone to 61 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 61 Sea Zone to Fukien
            2 transports moved from 37 Sea Zone to 49 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from Borneo to 49 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from 49 Sea Zone to 37 Sea Zone
            1 aaGun and 3 infantry moved from 37 Sea Zone to Burma
            1 transport moved from 37 Sea Zone to 49 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from Borneo to 49 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 49 Sea Zone to 36 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from 36 Sea Zone to French Indo-China Thailand
            1 transport moved from 36 Sea Zone to 62 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from Japan to 62 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from 62 Sea Zone to Manchuria
            1 battleship moved from 49 Sea Zone to 51 Sea Zone
            1 destroyer moved from 49 Sea Zone to 38 Sea Zone
            2 infantry moved from French Indo-China Thailand to Burma
            1 infantry moved from Suiyuan to Ningxia
            1 artillery moved from Ningxia to Sikang
            3 infantry moved from Manchuria to Suiyuan
            2 infantry moved from Fukien to Yunnan
            2 infantry moved from Soviet Far East to Yakut S.S.R.
            2 infantry moved from Buryatia S.S.R. to Soviet Far East
            2 fighters moved from Buryatia S.S.R. to Sikang
            1 destroyer and 3 submarines moved from 62 Sea Zone to 51 Sea Zone

Place Units - Japanese
            1 armour, 1 artillery and 1 infantry placed in Manchuria
            1 armour and 6 infantry placed in Japan
            1 transport placed in 62 Sea Zone
            1 armour and 3 infantry placed in Borneo

Turn Complete - Japanese
            Japanese collect 46 PUs; end with 50 PUs total
            Objective 2: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 55 PUs
            Objective 3: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 60 PUs
            Objective 1: Japanese met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 65 PUs

Territory Summary for Japanese :

Australia : 1 flag,    Borneo : 1 flag, 1 armour, 1 factory and 3 infantry
    Burma : 1 flag, 1 aaGun and 5 infantry
    Buryatia S.S.R. : 1 flag,    East Indies : 1 flag,    French Indo-China Thailand : 1 infantry
    Fukien : 1 flag, 2 infantry
    Hupeh : 1 flag,    India : 1 flag, 2 armour, 2 artilleries and 7 infantry
    Iwo Jima : 1 infantry
    Japan : 1 armour, 1 factory and 6 infantry
    Kwangtung : 1 flag,    Manchuria : 1 aaGun, 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 factory and 3 infantry
    New Guinea : 1 flag,    Ningxia : 1 flag, 2 infantry
    Philippine Islands : 1 flag,    Sikang : 1 flag, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 3 infantry
    Solomon Islands : 1 flag,    Soviet Far East : 1 flag, 1 armour and 3 infantry
    Stanovoj Chrebet : 1 flag,    Suiyuan : 1 flag, 3 infantry
    Yakut S.S.R. : 1 flag, 1 armour, 1 artillery and 5 infantry
    Yunnan : 1 flag, 3 armour and 2 infantry
    36 Sea Zone : 1 transport
    37 Sea Zone : 1 battleship and 2 transports
    38 Sea Zone : 1 destroyer
    51 Sea Zone : 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 destroyers, 6 fighters and 3 submarines
    61 Sea Zone : 1 transport
    62 Sea Zone : 2 transports
    63 Sea Zone : 1 transport

Production/PUs Summary :

Germans : 33 / 50
    Russians : 18 / 23
    Japanese : 46 / 65
    British : 27 / 33
    Italians : 9 / 9
    Chinese : 1 / 0
    Americans : 44 / 54

[Gargantua]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II v3 1941, version: 1.3

Game History

Round :6

Purchase Units - British
            British buy 2 armour, 2 artilleries and 4 infantry; Remaining resources: 3 PUs;

Combat Move - British
            1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 4 fighters and 5 infantry moved from Finland to Karelia S.S.R.
            2 fighters moved from United Kingdom to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 fighter moved from 5 Sea Zone to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 transport moved from 5 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 5 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 transport moved from 5 Sea Zone to 6 Sea Zone
            1 artillery moved from United Kingdom to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 6 Sea Zone
            1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 6 Sea Zone
            2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 5 Sea Zone
            1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 5 Sea Zone
            1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 6 Sea Zone to 5 Sea Zone
            1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 5 Sea Zone to Karelia S.S.R.
            1 infantry moved from 5 Sea Zone to Northwestern Europe
                  British take Northwestern Europe from Germans

Combat - British
            Battle in Karelia S.S.R.
                British attack with 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 bomber, 7 fighters and 8 infantry
                Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 3 armour, 3 artilleries, 1 factory, 2 fighters and 17 infantry
                    AA guns fire in Karelia S.S.R. :  3/8 hits
                    3 fighters owned by the British lost in Karelia S.S.R.
                    British roll dice for 1 cruiser in Karelia S.S.R., round 1 :  1/1 hits
                    British roll dice for 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 1 bomber, 4 fighters and 8 infantry in Karelia S.S.R., round 1 :  6/16 hits
                    Germans roll dice for 3 armour, 3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 17 infantry in Karelia S.S.R., round 1 :  7/25 hits
                    6 infantry owned by the British , 7 infantry owned by the Germans and 1 artillery owned by the British lost in Karelia S.S.R.
                1 armour, 1 artillery and 2 infantry retreated to Finland
                Germans win with 3 armour, 3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 10 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -31
                Casualties for Germans: 7 infantry
                Casualties for British: 1 artillery, 3 fighters and 6 infantry
            Recording Battle Statistics

Non Combat Move - British
            4 fighters moved from Karelia S.S.R. to 5 Sea Zone
            1 bomber moved from Karelia S.S.R. to United Kingdom
            1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Trans-Jordan to Persia

Place Units - British
            2 armour, 2 artilleries and 4 infantry placed in United Kingdom

Turn Complete - British
            British collect 29 PUs; end with 32 PUs total