I’ve been researching France in World War 2 recently, and I stumbled upon this article on JSTOR:
Unfortunately, my regular free JSTOR account cannot access this.
Please let me know if you have access to this article in any way. Thank you!
Leaving the forum
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For those who are interested, I will no longer be part of this WWII history forum. (And will keep my posts in other axisandallies.org forums to an absolute minimum.) This is not a decision I reached lightly. My single biggest regret is the people I’ll be leaving behind.
My reason for leaving is simple enough: a list moderator has taken it upon himself to censor ideas and factual statements he considers too “sensitive.” As an example of what he has decided is off-limits: one of the best history books I’ve ever read–a book which was praised by The Times (London), The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, etc.–states that as a result of the British food blockade, WWII Germany lacked the food with which to feed everyone within its own borders.
The terms of service talk about the need for civility and truth; and I am strongly in favor of both. They say nothing about the censorship of data or of ideas. I did not agree to any such censorship when I joined the site, and I have no intention of agreeing to it now. There are other WWII forums whose moderators do not engage in the censorship of facts or ideas. By participating in a forum, I reward those who own and control the forum with my clicks (ad revenue), and, far more importantly, with the content I generate. Politically correct censorship of ideas or data is not even remotely okay, and I see no need to reward those who engage in it. As a forum participant, I have only one meaningful way of protesting such censorship. I have decided to exercise that option. It would be absurd for me to place myself in a situation in which I have to worry about which ideas, and which pieces of history, a moderator has chosen to erase.
I realize there are others here who are more accepting of the censorship of ideas and of history than I am. There are also those who have been here longer, and have written many more posts, than I have. I realize many now here will choose to stay, and I respect their decision. I also respect the decision of those who decide either to leave or otherwise protest the censorship of ideas and history.
i will be maintaining my account here–at least for the time being. My reason for doing so is threefold: to potentially add more posts to this thread, to participate in Gargantua’s tournament, and to remain reachable via PM. I would be delighted to rejoin the forum later–but only if the moderator in question is asked to change his policy of censoring ideas and factual data.
Finally, I’d like to thank everyone with whom I’ve had enjoyable discussions; as well as those who have added to this forum with their knowledge and insight. I’ll miss you.
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Actually going off topic like talking about some Holocaust related issue in a thread about could the French fight on, or not reading the rules regarding Political talk and or sensitive issues that have been forbidden for like 5 years now.
Threads deserve to maintain integration so people can feel more like participating in what the thread was about, as opposed to a constant sway to Eugenics issues and other pet topics.
We also don’t need soapbox politics where some people have to post always need to get to that same topic…even if the thread was about “apple pie recipes”.
These invariably lead to flame wars and closed threads and that is not anything positive for anybody.
lastly, stop calling GOING OFF TOPIC … censorship. They are not the same. Threads were closed for off topic or flame wars and in one case quasi-political ( not allowed)
Here they are and read them all the way through to see how they got off topic or became flame wars. Is it so difficult not to go off topic?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27224.15
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26769.45
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26412.75
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25395.30
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23148.30You should not leave, just not go off topic ok?
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@Imperious:
Actually going off topic like talking about some Holocaust related issue in a thread about could the French fight on, or not reading the rules regarding Political talk and or sensitive issues that have been forbidden for like 5 years now.
Threads deserve to maintain integration so people can feel more like participating in what the thread was about, as opposed to a constant sway to Eugenics issues and other pet topics.
We also don’t need soapbox politics where some people have to post always need to get to that same topic…even if the thread was about “apple pie recipes”.
These invariably lead to flame wars and closed threads and that is not anything positive for anybody.
lastly, stop calling GOING OFF TOPIC … censorship. They are not the same. Threads were closed for off topic or flame wars and in one case quasi-political ( not allowed)
Here they are and read them all the way through to see how they got off topic or became flame wars. Is it so difficult not to go off topic?
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=27224.15
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26769.45
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26412.75
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25395.30
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23148.30You should not leave, just not go off topic ok?
I do not object to being asked to stay on-topic. I do object, strongly, to being told that there is no thread in which it would be appropriate to discuss (for example) Germany’s food situation during WWII, or the relationship that food situation had to the starvation of millions of people in its occupied territory.
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"I do not object to being asked to stay on-topic. I do object, strongly, to being told that there is no thread in which it would be appropriate to discuss (for example) Germany’s food situation during WWII, or the relationship that food situation had to the starvation of millions of people in its occupied territory. "
If that were only true. Or true to the extent that it might not develop into another soapbox discourse on Eugenics, Holocaust, Racial Laws in Germany, Train schedules of slave labor, or Race in general all which are sensitive subjects for some.
Stick to WW2 Military History ( e.g. the battles and equipment) rather than always going into the pet subjects above. All those roads lead to Flame Wars and Trolling as they have proven in each case in addition to going off topic.
Carefully read each discussion i closed to see how and why. It is pretty obvious.
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Or true to the extent that it might not develop into another soapbox discourse on Eugenics, Holocaust, Racial Laws in Germany, Train schedules of slave labor, or Race in general all which are sensitive subjects for some.
My two cents Kurt….it does seem no matter what the topic, you descend into one of the aforementioned categories.
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Well Kurt, in a way I regret your decision, and in a way I don’t.
Your posts are always well-written. Your grammar and syntax are impeccable, your argumentation follows a logical course, and you frequently quote sources to substantiate what you’re saying. And by those qualities, you certainly distinguish yourself from quite a few others in a positive way.
On the other hand, you do have a tendency to bring up the same subjects time and again, and in some of your posts I’ve noticed what appears to be an active effort to turn a topic away from its original intent and towards matters that seem to have your particular interest. It’s not for me to determine whether such efforts are intentional or merely a byproduct of a focus on certain aspects of World War II history that you believe to be all-important. But they have resulted in the derailment of many a topic.
My overall impression is that you have a preconceived view on certain matters, and then build your discourse on the presentation of evidence supporting that view. You’re by far not unique in that respect: there are many others who have their own preconceived views, and very few, if any, spend the same amount of time and effort on defending their view as you do. But believing to know the truth in advance is not the road to obtaining new knowledge and not a solid basis for debate.
I’m generally not too optimistic about our efforts to gain a better understanding of the causes and implications of World War II on this forum. Countless scholars have written entire libraries about it, so some modesty would behoove us. I’m usually happy enough when someone directs me to a new source or points out an aspect that I hadn’t considered before, but I’m typically not too impressed by the conclusions people arrive at. Not because I have anything better to offer myself, but I do try to err on the side of caution.
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I agree with you kaleun.
But what happens when moderator are off topic?I believe that some moderateurs should pay attention has their writing and their position which sometimes touches the contempt!
And should also make a self-examination. -
Stop deleted every single post I’ve made in this thread.
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The one post i effected was moved to Moderation, not deleted.
Stay on Topic.
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Why don’t you move this topic to General Discussion where it belongs?
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Because Kurt only posts in this section and it is his “goodbye” thread. He should be afforded at least that much. Why does it matter to you?
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Thats too bad, sorry to see ya go.
Together we all make the personality of this site and its sad to loose another, we become more generic,plain,blah,etc.
Dont forget about all of us -
Sorry to see you go. I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have empathy for you. I don’t conscribe to many ‘traditional’ histories told by those in power to deceive and control us. I share your passion for throwing off the shackles of accepted WWII history. Now, you know how Patton felt when he disagreed with the Allied ‘peace’ efforts after WWII. And, how Robert Taft felt when he disagreed with the Nuremburg Trials. I hate censorship. But, I encourage you to stay. I haven’t agreed with Gargantua at times, but I have found him very civil and mature since our disagreement. He is the A and A Villian after all, lol. Gargantua is the type of guy I’d want at my table playing Axis and Allies. You disagree, but you move on, and you move on without bitterness. Forgive, but forgive with a well-fortfied castle, that’s my motto. Just sharing my heart. I enjoyed what you wrote.
I appreciate this post, and the kind words you’ve written. At the same time, it’s our responsibility to stand up to those who would censor ideas. For me, that means leaving the forum. I’d be happy to return at some future point if the policy of idea censorship is abandoned.
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it’s our responsibility to stand up to those who would censor ideas. For me, that means leaving the forum.
I FORMALLY request that you stay. Leaving isn’t standing up, it’s succumbing to the pressure of the censor.
Join the discussion in the website section, regarding new forum policy, and RESIST censorship.
Your support is needed.
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it’s our responsibility to stand up to those who would not allow me to go off topic in threads that have nothing to do what the OP is talking about. For me, that means leaving the forum. I’d be happy to return at some future point if the policy of closing threads that are off topic and end up in flame wars is abandoned.
If you finally get over swapping words like “censorship” with “closing threads that went off topic and ended up in flame wars”……you might be happier. So stay and post only about the topic at hand.
The only censorship is removing words like F*** or J*P or caustic or insulting posting against another member here. Get over it.
In fact find one post of yours that was edited. You wont because it was never done. The only thing that was done was 4-5 threads got closed for being off topic and this was posted in the last post before the thread was locked. This whole censorship nonsense is nothing but never fessing up to going off topic…in fact way off topic, and others who have an axe to grind using the word to further false premises against moderation because time and again THEY themselves get in trouble with the established rules.
WW2 posts need to be related to the game. All the forum threads have relation to the game, so by inference the History thread should bear some similarity to the game ( battles, leaders, and campaigns) as opposed to how many Jews got murdered on trains in 1943 with pages of supporting documentation that have nothing to do anything here. Eugenics, and Holocaust related posts have nothing to do with Axis and Allies. In fact, many of the simplistic posts dealing with this issue nearly always end up in flame wars and trolls appear. Like Political talk, these subjects also fall into the " do not post about this" category out of the experience we get from dealing with the problems.
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Kurt……Personally, I don’t like the German Food shortage line of posts from you. That was my first impression of you, it elicited a strong negative reaction towards you that I am working on overcoming. That being said, I don’t think you should leave, you are a smart guy and your posts while a bit long at times do provoke thought and I do look at the sources you cite.
IL, as for feeling the need to edit the word Jap…Really? So, would Yank, Brit and Canuck or even Canucklehead be words that are off limits?
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How bout you call a Japanese a J*P?
See how they like that. They don’t.
Posting that word is nothing for idiots who want shock effect for being a troll. We do have Japanese-Americans who post here and it is not the sites goal to mess with them.
Also, that is only an example. The work K**e is extremely insulting to Jews and has also been removed from posts. You see all these hurtful words have no place on this site. It is a site for everyone from all backrounds and not subject to the vernacular of ignorance.
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Kurt……Personally, I don’t like the German Food shortage line of posts from you. That was my first impression of you, it elicited a strong negative reaction towards you that I am working on overcoming. That being said, I don’t think you should leave, you are a smart guy and your posts while a bit long at times do provoke thought and I do look at the sources you cite.
IL, as for feeling the need to edit the word Jap…Really? So, would Yank, Brit and Canuck or even Canucklehead be words that are off limits?
I appreciate the kind words, both from you and from Gargantua. The owner of the forum seems open to the idea of reforming current list policies. Should that occur, I’d be delighted to stay.
Before I end this post, I’d like to call attention to Imperious Leader’s second-most recent post in this thread. I’d written, “I’d be happy to return at some future point if the policy of idea censorship is abandoned.” In quoting me, he changed my words to, “I’d be happy to return at some future point if the policy of closing threads that are off topic and end up in flame wars is abandoned.” Changing words in that way is highly inappropriate for a list participant, let alone a list moderator.
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In quoting me, he changed my words to, “I’d be happy to return at some future point if the policy of closing threads that are off topic and end up in flame wars is abandoned.” Changing words in that way is highly inappropriate for a list participant, let alone a list moderator.
If you finally get over swapping words like “censorship” with “closing threads that went off topic and ended up in flame wars”……you might be happier. So stay and post only about the topic at hand.
It was what it would look like if you stated what actually happened, not a quote from you. It is rather what you should have written.
It was a point made since not once have you ever reflected on the actual problem, which is topics closed due to going off topic. You can choose to cry censorship, even if that never occurred to you as nobody EVER changed any post you made. Its easy to scapegoat the problem as “censorship” to avoid the actual issue which was clearly those threads got closed because THEY WERE OFF TOPIC and they all got a post indicating that at the time.
“Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body.”
This means the posts which you make claims about should have been edited or removed. NONE of that was done. All your posts are still in the closed threads and were never edited or removed. Nothing was SUPPRESSED.
I feel “censorship” is a good value added word that you use that brings for sympathy to your claims. If anybody would ever bother to read the closed threads, it would be a no brainer why they were actually closed.
It is so clear as to not even warrant any wriggling room for any other issue that can be claimed.
Again you will be better off if you just avoid putting threads into hijack mode with off topic posts, which also leads to flame wars because of the political nature of these posts.
If the thread was about “Making Mac and Cheese” we don’t need something like:
“600,000 Jews were transported as hard labor from Belarus according to Schoernhurst and this cost the Reich 100,000 Marks and was performed 2.23.1943”
It has nothing to do with the thread!
Just so you know we do have a policy against political discussion, this is due to many flame wars that developed over the years and experience of same. They are not allowed so in terms of censorship we may be doing this, but the rule was not mine to make. We also close political threads and have since like 2007 ish.
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KurtGodel7:
First off, in “COULD FRANCE OF FOUGHT ON?” thread, Reply #23, you cite wikipedia. Â Seriously? Â Wikipedia, the one online journal universally banned from all the world’s (fine, all the respectable ones) university and college campuses for being utterly unreliable.
Now, dont get me wrong, I’m want to use it to define some terms - but generally when it’s bloody common knowledge (certain SOMEBODIES demand freaking you cite every piece of common knowledge, else they go on a rant about how they have a letter from their dead so-in-so giving unvalidated, unrelated opinion that is contradictory.)
Secondly, I happen to have quite a few Polish friends - FROM POLAND, it takes f***ing balls to charge a German tank from horseback. Â I’m not saying the Germans were all illigitimate children or all people who liked to engage in unaquiessed coital activities (you can translate, I am sure) - but what I am saying, is BE MORE CIRCUMSPECT. Â Fine, yer German, fine, you have pride in your heritage. I’m bloody Ukrainian and I tell you what, I’m proud of America AND Ukraine. Â Just try to back off a bit, there are Poles, Frogs, Limeys, Krauts, Reds, Yankee Doodles, Nips and Chinks here, not to mention a bloody helluva lot more.
Tertially, dude, SERIOUSLY, super race (pre-war Japanese options, reply #75) now you’re just BEGGING Imperious Leader to ban you, he’s banned others for far less, hell, I have CONSIDERED (emphases to the EXTREME there) banning others for less, and I’ve yet to ban anyone! (certain somebodies, of course, will beg to differ, but then, who gives a rats anus droppings what they think?)
In summation, may I point out that (while I tried pretty hard to demonstrate) you can technically bait people without breaking the rules (no offence intended to the three of you out there, and you three know who you are and what I am referring too) it’s still a violation of the rules.
Personally, if a topic goes awry, I don’t think IL and I or DM or YG or Dezrt, or Djensen or the planet as a whole give a pah-toot, as long as it stays clean and sober. Â We ARE, however, a bit shell shocked after “HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED” routinely invaded threads for the expressed intent to derail them and get them locked, in a very clear and deliberate attempt to both drive readers away and shot down intelligent converse.
Just my two copper Sestertius on the matter.
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