UK barbarossa strategies

[Noll]

@Cmdr:

@Noll:

In the event that during G1 the german players builds all land units in order to push toward Russia, what would be the best UKL and UKP strategy?
And what would you do with USA?

First off, I would say this is a mistake regardless of your destination.

A) Why tell your enemy your plan?

B) Those transports are useful in both Barbarossa and Sea Lion

Oh Jennifer let’s be more specific

G1 Germany builds 10inf (or other land units). At this point you’re 90% sure Germany won’t go SeaLion, what do you do with UK?

[Jennifer]

Round 1, Germany buys 10 Transports.  Is she going Sea Lion, or Barbarossa?  Odds are Sea Lion, so you have to think of how to counter it, but she could very well go Barbarossa and have the transports necessary to move 10-20 infantry a round into Russia through the Ost Sea (Baltic Sea).

Or she could still do Sea Lion.  This gives Germany the option of not declaring to the world what she wants to do, until she knows what she wants to do. eh?

[Noll]

I think this topic is named “UK - barbarossa strategies”

I wanted to know how people play the UK when Germany commits everything to Russia.

[Alsch91]

@Cmdr:

Round 1, Germany buys 10 Transports.

Uh I’m assuming you meant Round 2.  :lol:

If you buy 10 transports and then go with Barbarossa, you’ll have an awfully uphill battle in Russia.
You’re 70 IPCs behind in the land race.  Tough.

[Jennifer]

Yes, sorry, round 2 buy 10 transports.

UK has to consider Germany buying 10 transports on Round 1 anyway.  Round 2 Germany may as well buy 10 transports.  So Round 3 is the earliest yoiu can think of anti-Barbarossa and by then, it should be too late for a complex in Egypt.

I’d say focus on building ground troops in S. Africa, just to push up and tie up Italian forces, and then beg the American player to help you out fleet wise in the Atlantic.

[Alsch91]

I don’t understand.
If you buy those transports on R2 and don’t get the payoff of Sealion, how will you deal with the Russia?
Sure, they won’t be able to stack up in Leningrad, but he doesn’t have to in order to make your life difficult.

UK can build in Cpr/Irq and Saf to pressure Italy.  A couple carrier from US would definitely help in the Atlantic fight.

[Jennifer]

The transports are an insurance policy against America.  America and England now have to consider a Sea Lion attack which denies then a complex in Egypt and troops in S. Africa for a while.  Meanwhile, Germany’s going to need those blasted transports anyway, at least now it’s done and over with.  They can end run around the Russians meaning the Russians have to hold back to boot.

[Noll]

If you don’t buy 2 transports G1, you will have 4 less land units in the event of a SeaLion, this means you can even afford an IC with UK round1 and still stay safe.

[Jennifer]

Let me say it a different way.  Round 1 and Round 2 go as if Sea Lion for Germany.  I don’t care if you want to do Sea Lion or not, this will endeavor to keep the allies guessing as to your intentions.

[Alsch91]

I agree that it would pressure UK heavily.  UK will have to turtle longer than normal.

But you’re assuming Germany would need to build those transports either way.
I have no idea why you’re making that assumption.
You do that and Russia’s already beating you in the land war.
I don’t see how you can counter a Russian stack in East Poland.

If you buy 10 transports on G2, I won’t be “guessing” at all.  I’m going to assume you’re going for a Sealion.  If you choose to switch gears, that’s even better for me.
London is still Allied, and you don’t get the Sealion payoff.

[Noll]

But the topic is different: How do you react Jennifer, when Germany builds 10 infantries round 1 and moves everything toward the Russian border?

How do you act after G2 when you also see he dows Russia and builds 10 mec infantries and some armors?

We’re not talking about “how you play” (also your experience is not based on the last and final Alpha3 with the different naval setup and with England having more land units)

[Jennifer]

Alsch:

Yes, I think Germany needs the transports anyway.  For the following:

1. You CAN land in England, if he doesnt defend.
2. You can land in Africa if needed.
3. You can land all along the Russian northern border both from teh Arctic Ocean and the Baltic Sea

Noll:

If Germany buys, for instance, 10 infantry, I buy a complex in Egpyt and start turtling all my forces there as best I can, using S. Africa to augment the Indian fleet.

[Spendo02]

Note Germany can still Sea Lion if they do a 10 Inf purchase on G1.

G3 Sea Lion just consists of 8 TT (1 Starting + 7 purchased + 1 CV purchased).

If UK1 doesn’t put Inf out on London, you can still Sea Lion effectively.  Particularly with a very strong SBR on G2.  I’ve done it.

So spending 12 IPC on a Minor in Egypt and putting 10-12 IPC in S.Africa sets you up for it.

Even with G2 ending with 8 TT, thats 8 Inf and some combination of Arm/Art that can land in Archangel or Nov on G3 if the UK went defensive.

Combined with an attack on G3 from Poland on the Baltics (Supported with Arm from the French Invasion) you can have solid stacks on G3 that end up in the Baltics and Arch, effectively surrounding Leningrad for G4.  Just so happens if Leningrad falls to Germany on G4, the Japs can land their entire air Force on Leningrad on J4 (need AB at Suiy).  Thats not a pretty sight for the Russians.

[Noll]

@Spendo02:

Note Germany can still Sea Lion if they do a 10 Inf purchase on G1.

G3 Sea Lion just consists of 8 TT (1 Starting + 7 purchased + 1 CV purchased).

If UK1 doesn’t put Inf out on London, you can still Sea Lion effectively.  Particularly with a very strong SBR on G2.  I’ve done it.

So spending 12 IPC on a Minor in Egypt and putting 10-12 IPC in S.Africa sets you up for it.

Even with G2 ending with 8 TT, thats 8 Inf and some combination of Arm/Art that can land in Archangel or Nov on G3 if the UK went defensive.

Combined with an attack on G3 from Poland on the Baltics (Supported with Arm from the French Invasion) you can have solid stacks on G3 that end up in the Baltics and Arch, effectively surrounding Leningrad for G4.  Just so happens if Leningrad falls to Germany on G4, the Japs can land their entire air Force on Leningrad on J4 (need AB at Suiy).  Thats not a pretty sight for the Russians.

I don’t think a wise UK player would leave UK completely undefended UK1.

In my last game I bought 6inf 1fig in UK instead of 9inf (the fig could reach the Medi later on) and I didn’t buy a Egypt minor.

In reality you could do a 5inf UK + 1minorIC Egypt round1.

[Jennifer]

A UK1 complex in Egpyt isnt going to take all your cash, you have a lot left for home defense.

[Spendo02]

UK1 - 28 IPC
1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 TT (S.Africa) - 14 IPC
1 Arm, 1 Inf, 1 Art (London) - 13 IPC
Bank 1 IPC

Combat:
Attack SZ96 with Tac (off CV in SZ98) Ftr (Malta) DD (SZ98) Bomber (London) - Land all Aircraft on Malta

NCM:
Retreat CV and CR (SZ98) to SZ81
Fly Ftr/Tac (Calcutta) to SZ81 - Land on CV
Retreat from Alexandria to Cairo
Move TT (SZ39) to SZ80 - Bring 1 Art from India and drop in Persia
Move Inf (W.India) to E.Persia
Move TT (SZ98) to SZ80 - Yes, Empty

Ignoring other possible moves as I’m illustrating a point, End UK1

Now UK2 you should have 35ish IPC to spend.

Ignoring purchases, this is what you move to Egypt:
1 TT with 1 Inf/Art from S.Africa
1 TT from SZ80 bringing 1 Inf/Art from Persia
1 TT from SZ80 bringing 1 Inf from Persia, 1 Inf from E.Persia
You can also fly 1 Ftr, 1 Tac, 1 Bomber into Egypt from Malta, as well as fly 1 Ftr/Tac from the CV in SZ81.
All of these ships are behind the Suez and cannot be reached except if I1 stages its Bomber in Rome - which is why it makes sense to leave aircraft on the CV.

Thats 4 Inf, 2 Art, 2 Ftr, 2 Tac and 1 Bomber that CAN move into Egypt on UK2.  Italy isn’t going to be taking Egypt anytime soon and is going to have to be VERY careful about exposing its fleet to 5 aircraft, 1 CV and potentially 2 CR (SZ81 / SZ91).  EDIT I forgot there is a UK DD and French DD that can also be staged in SZ81 at the start of UK2.

To further compound the Italian situation, there are now 3 TT that can move aggressively from SZ81 on UK3 into any Italian held territories in the Med.

This gets even worse for Italy if on G1 both TT/DD combos in SZ’s109 and 106 survived.

Potentially UK3 could land 6 Inf, 3 Art, 1 Arm on S.France, N.Italy or Rome which would be VERY unwelcome for the Axis in any of those locations.

I don’t see a single reason to buy a Minor in Egypt on UK1 - the units won’t arrive (at best) until the end of UK2 and even then you are only landing 3 Inf there.  I’m not sure if Italy can take Egypt any later than I3 without exposing Rome to potential Allied landings prior to I4/I5.

[Noll]

I wish I could give “stars” or thumbs up to spendo, your detailed analysis rocks.

[Cow]

a little too light on london purchases, might be tempting to do round 2 sea lion with germany.

[Spendo02]

Well lets look at it:

1 Minor leaves 16 IPC to place in London which equates to something along the lines of 5 Inf Bank 1 or 4 Inf, 1 Art Bank 0.

My purchase only changes the units on London slightly (from 5 units to 3 units).  I can put more pressure in Italy from the get-go without completely sacrificing two rounds of purchases for 3 Inf on Egypt.

Consider this:  If G1 is 10 Inf, there really isn’t much of a reason to scramble over SZ110 and SZ111.  Of course, you still can and try to shoot down some aircraft which deters Sea Lion outright.

However look at it this way:  G2 is going to have to either have both the BB and CR survive to give 8-10 TT a chance to cross the Channel or it will need to buy a CV on G2 which means at most 8 TT are coming on G3 Sea Lion.  By not scrambling, you force Germany to have to fly aircraft into SZ110 in a G3 Sea Lion or face the potential of at a minimum 3 Ftr scrambling.

You can reinforce this on UK2 with a CV purchase and possibly 1 Ftr (I forget if its 35 or 36 ending IPC).  With a potential CR, two DD and a CV with 2 Ftr and 3 scrambling over it you have effectively removed the German aircraft from hitting London anyways because Germany is going to have to divert multiple aircraft to address 4-5 Ftr, 1 CV (absorbs 2 hits right away), 1 CR, up to two DD.

Even if Germany decided to land all the units, its going to have to face the music of losing a ton of aircraft in the process - which is a primary tenet of the European Allied Strategy.

And realistically I don’t think two less units on London will make a HUGE difference in the German determination, whereas 5 Ftr and a CV would if G1 did not include ships to support G3 Sea Lion.

[Spendo02]

@Cow:

a little too light on london purchases, might be tempting to do round 2 sea lion with germany.

This is based off no TT purchases on G1 meaning Germany only has 1 TT for G2.  UK London will have the following for G2 to look at:

Any remaining remaining aircraft from UK1.
7 Inf (2 Starting, 1 Purchased, 2 French, 2 NCM from Scotland)
1 Art (Purchased)
1 Mech (Starting)
1 Arm (Purchased)
5 AA (4 Starting, 1 NCM from Scotland)

I’m almost 100% positive Germany is not going to send its entire Air Force and 2 ground units to London on G2 with its single TT with the first 5 hits being absorbed by AA guns.  Even if Germany manages to break through the 5 AA guns, it still needs to get 10 more hits to take London.

Now the door is still open for G3 Sea Lion, but with a lesser contingent landing, which is fine because UK2 can be a full Inf Purchase (minus potential SBR damage) and I do not think 2 less Inf on London makes a world of difference to a German Sea Lion Plan - which for all intensive purposes should NOT include a 10 Inf purchase on G1.

I have not decided if scrambling on G1 is a good idea or not for London with a 10 Inf purchase on G1.

A lot probably depends on what G1 does in SZ111 and SZ110.  SZ110 is interesting because with no DD present, the German SS cannot be used as fodder against 3 Ftr rolling @4 which means you have the potential to reach into sinking a german aircraft or two.   I don’t think I’d scramble if the BB went to SZ110 along with 2 SS.  I’d save the Aircraft at that point and take my chances with the dice on London - you are just throwing those aircraft to the wolves with 2 absorbed hits to the BB before you can break through.

I don’t particularly care for scrambling the Ftr in Scotland because the DD present allows Germany to take SS as fodder before cutting into a BB or aircraft.  I’d rather save the Ftr for London later if Sea Lion does occur.  If it doesn’t, I have that many more Ftr to reinforce US landings in Europe later.