G1 build and German air power

[Col. Ty Webb]

@Mallery29:

If the American fleet heads east, then that dooms the British fleet.  Even if the American fleet surives, It still takes too many turns to be of any use to the Russian front.

How do you figure either one of those?

[Mallery29]

The continued buildup of subs and planes deter any invasion force.  I let Japan be the aggressor and Germany be defensive.  Any incursion by the allies to help Russia will be sacked.  If they take Africa back, so be it…Germany can win w/o Africa, but the Allies can’t w/o.  You’ll find by G3 a force of 6 fighters, 2 bomber, and 6 subs will handle anything the allies can muster.  You want France? Try it.  You want Norway? Try it. You’ll have no Navy left to speak of.

[Alsch91]

@Mallery29:

My counter to stacking Ukraine is offering it as a gift.  I’ll turtle all three territories around E.Europe. Without air power to back up your forces after taking Ukraine, your only hope is the AA gun, but be prepared to lose an AA gun.  The Germans will hit your stack with everything.  The Russian lines will be no more.  Plus if you pull an AA, you’re likely to get IB’d instead.

Uh Russia only stacks Ukraine if Germany can’t take it back.
That’s the only reason to stack it.  If Germany destroys the Russians in Ukraine, Russia made a huge mistake and Allies should lose.

[Mallery29]

Sorry, about one thing, when I read the Americans head East, I had Japan (EAST) in my head.   The American can only unite if it survives the sub G1 attack.  The BB and DD from the Pacific and letting Japan have free reign in the Pacific is bad for everyone.  And those two ships won’t get to help the Brits in time (no matter what you and the Brits buy).  My planes/sub strat is retalitory, not offensive.  Germany is a great D.  That’s why I say Germany doesn’t need Africa to win.  We’ll (axis) always have Moscow before you can threaten Berlin.

[Mallery29]

Stacking only works if you have planes to back it up though, and I won’t let them…I’ll trade punches like Bradley/Pacquiao (w/o the bias judges though :-D)

[Alsch91]

Oh okay.  Looks like you’ve discovered something that no one here has up to date.  :lol:
I apologize for questioning you.

Try a couple games here with that strat; see how Russia responds.  I think it’ll be a bit more agressive than you think.

[Mallery29]

I want Russia to be aggressive…I pull back the German forces in hopes of just building @ E. Europe and building a counterstrike to the allied fleet.  Now, if the Russians only decide to take 1 of the three territories, then it could get interesting, but if 3 is too hard for lot of people to pass up.  Meanwhile the Japan army gets closer and closer to Moscow…a breaking point will occur, and it does not favor the allies.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

German sub takes out American fleet G1? Highly doubt that a fleet is going to get to land troops.

First, a SZ10 attack on G1 has 55-45% odds. If you are counting that you’ll sink the US fleet most times, you’ll have a few bad surprises.
Second, you’re assuming that the US is going Pacific all the time. Don’t. Usually the US should focus instead on Germany, unless something unexpected happened on the previous rounds, like bad dice for Japan.

If the American fleet heads east, then that dooms the British fleet. Even if the American fleet surives, It still takes too many turns to be of any use to the Russian front.

Really?
US1 - buy 2 transport, 1 carrier, 1 destroyer, 1 armor. Move Battleship and transport to Panama and drop 2 inf there.
US2 - move SZ10 fleet (4 loaded transports) to SZ12. Move Panama (BB+ TRN) fleet off to Brazil with the 2 INF.

The US now have 5 US transports in range of Western Europe to hit on US3 - and you’re saying that G can ignore it and simply focus on the Soviets? Well, it can on G3, but on G4 it will have to retake Western Europe. Unless you’re trying to fortify Western Europe, on which case you’ll have to move nearly all of the infantry to Western Europe to fortify it - and all of those units are moving away from Russia.

I’ll gladly trade terrritories with the Russians turn for turn with Japan on Russia’s back door.� I agree that a complex in India is not a great option, that’s why I support a 3inf/3trans J1 buy so Japan can pour troops into Asia.

How do you deal with the UK and US subs? You can ignore them, but that means the entire Japanese fleet is tied to 1 or 2 locations because of a couple of Allied subs.

The continued buildup of subs and planes deter any invasion force.

How do you stop the Allies from using SZ2? or SZ4? The Allies need only to secure those 2 seazones to be able to offload troops to Europe. By having Germany building subs? OK, how do they survive Allied attacks with destroyers?

I let Japan be the aggressor and Germany be defensive. Any incursion by the allies to help Russia will be sacked.

LOL. How? How do you stop them from offloading units to Archangel? By moving your airforce to Eastern Europe? Fine, then they offload in Norway, since they can’t cover both SZs.

If they take Africa back, so be it…Germany can win w/o Africa, but the Allies can’t w/o.  You’ll find by G3 a force of 6 fighters, 2 bomber, and 6 subs will handle anything the allies can muster.

I love numbers - by UK1 Germany loses 1 sub and 2 ftrs on average, in Ukraine or attacks on the UK fleet (SZ2 and SZ13). So, to reach those levels it needs to buy 2 ftrs, 1 bmr and 4 subs, which translates into 56 IPCs. Assuming a 40-42 average income for those 3 rounds, thats almost half of 124 IPCs it earned spent on airforce/subs.

Meanwhile, Soviets earn 24 + 31 + 30, or 85 IPCs, which it all spends on ground units, so it reinforces its army by that amount, while the Germans only buy 68 IPCs AND it needs to send units to reinforce Western Europe and to Africa…. leaving only…? How much against the Soviets? Probably not enough, since Japan can’t really threaten the Soviets during those rounds and they can send everything against Germany.

You want France? Try it.  You want Norway? Try it. You’ll have no Navy left to speak of.

You keep assuming that the Allies want to attack those territories at all cost. Or that you can sink any Allied fleet on G2/3 with those buys, regardless of Allied buys/moves. OR that the UK won’t build a destroyer on SZ6 to block any German subs on SZ5 from attack SZ3.

Play first against a decent Allied player or get TripleA and I’ll show you. The claims you make depend either on bad dice or on stupid Allied mistakes to succeed.

[Mallery29]

Friend and I have tried it against each other using the same strat.  Usually, we see the US abandon the Pacific, so I’m not assuming anything (don’t know where you got that but sorry if you got confused by my writing…didn’t mean that to happen). I’m not counting on the sub to working to win, but if I’m looking for an opening attack that can hit the Allies the hardest, it has to be that…therefore, it’s opening attack everytime for me.  You say you can hit on US3 for W. Europe, but I guarantee you won’t hit with 5 fighters, 2 tanks, and about 9-10inf depending on the Russian Front.  You are right about the destroyer in the path…I find that an effective tool to keep the German subs at bay.
As for the Japanese, I only concern myself with the subs if I see a buildup of subs in the Pacific.  By keeping 2 BBs and 2 armed carriers protecting my land bridge, I find I’ll have copious time to plant destroyers to counter the approaching subs.  The two Allied Pacific subs are of no threat unless they decide to form a wolfpack, but that mean the US is contributing a lot of resources to the Pacific, and thus, hinders the Atlantic, thus giving Germany its victory.  And if the US is going to try to send bombers to take out that fleet, I can again put down enough fodder of DDs to make any attack suicide against six 4s and two 2s (not counting any DDs that would be down).

[Mallery29]

Also, would love to play you, but on a public computer for the time being….my laptop fried itself (well, the Hard Drive is still intact, I just can’t get to the boot), so I’m currently attempting to figure out how to fix it, or looking into get a new laptop (and my desktop is on the otherside of the country right now).  When I get this resolved, would love to.

[Alsch91]

9-10 Inf?
You understand, that if you’re going to be buying subs/fighters and moving defensive forces west like that, that Russia will be able to press a lot harder.

By press harder, I mean stacking Ukraine without you being able to destroy it.
Russia will never stack Ukraine if you have land/air forces in range to destroy them.  That will never happen if Russia isn’t bone-headed.

When Hobbes mentioned the allied subs in the Pacific, he means that - without an destroyer buy - Japan will have to have its fleet in two groups.
You said that you’d keep two groups, so fair enough.  But that means you can’t take allied holdings in the Pacific or pick infantry off of all your islands.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

Friend and I have tried it against each other using the same strat.� Usually, we see the US abandon the Pacific, so I’m not assuming anything (don’t know where you got that but sorry if you got confused by my writing…didn’t mean that to happen). I’m not counting on the sub to working to win, but if I’m looking for an opening attack that can hit the Allies the hardest, it has to be that…therefore, it’s opening attack everytime for me.� You say you can hit on US3 for W. Europe, but I guarantee you won’t hit with 5 fighters, 2 tanks, and about 9-10inf depending on the Russian Front.

The US doesn’t have to hit. It only has to draw German forces away from Russia as you described and thus it affects events on Europe right from US2-3.
Going back the math above, you need to send 7-8 inf and 2 arm to W. Europe to defend it, from new builds. So now Germany only has 37 IPCs do deal with the Soviets’ own 85 IPC total income during those rounds. And less the units sent to Africa.

� You are right about the destroyer in the path…I find that an effective tool to keep the German subs at bay.
As for the Japanese, I only concern myself with the subs if I see a buildup of subs in the Pacific.� By keeping 2 BBs and 2 armed carriers protecting my land bridge, I find I’ll have copious time to plant destroyers to counter the approaching subs.� The two Allied Pacific subs are of no threat

They can be a true nuisance if you are planning to land units on Africa or Australia. You can only cover 2 locations and you usually already have to cover SZ60 and FIC.

unless they decide to form a wolfpack, but that mean the US is contributing a lot of resources to the Pacific, and thus, hinders the Atlantic, thus giving Germany its victory.� And if the US is going to try to send bombers to take out that fleet, I can again put down enough fodder of DDs to make any attack suicide against six 4s and two 2s (not counting any DDs that would be down)

Why would the US want to use bombers to try to threaten SZ60 or even build subs for the Pacific if you are not going KJF? If you are playing against a Japanese noob, yeah the bombers may work.

[Hobbes]

@Alsch91:

Russia will never stack Ukraine if you have land/air forces in range to destroy them.  That will never happen if Russia isn’t bone-headed.

I disagree. Russia SHOULD stack Ukraine, if it forces Germany to attack and achieve suffer a Phyrric victory on G2-4. The Russians may get blooded but there’s no way Germany afterwards can stop the Allies on Europe and Japan will still be too far away to conquer Russia soon.

What usually happens is that Germany NEVER attacks on this situation because the Allies just created a ‘let’s play chicken position’. Unless the German player wants to risk its luck they will back off and not attack Ukraine. Which suits the Allies proposes just as fine, since they took away initiative from the Axis in Europe and denied Germany 3 IPCs from Ukraine.

[Mallery29]

France starts w/2 inf + 1 inf from Ger + 1 inf S. Europe, 2inf from G1, 3 from G2 = 9inf.

[Mallery29]

ack…hit wrong button…ok, continuing, I’m not saying that the US would/should buy bombers, I’m just saying if they DID buy them, my defense will hold.  If I’m looking to pluck AK/Hawaii/NZ/Aus away from the Allies, I will commit a carrier w/BB escort with a transport to handle the infedels…that still provides a carrier w/BB protecting the land bridge.  If Borneo fell at the beginning, I would just use the south battle group  to handle the cruiser and bring a transport with phillipinos and planes from the carrier to erradicate the British population. J2, they reunite around Japan crushing Burtyia (2BB, 6 planes, 1 bomber, tank, art, 6inf). Goodbye Russian backdoor. (J1 was 3inf/3trans)

[Mallery29]

I also understood what he meant about the subs…but one sub versus a BB and carrier (understand the planes can’t attack), but you’re telling me a sub has at least a 50% chance of winning this (or at least eliminating the carrier and BB?)?  Not going to happen.  Stranger things have happened, but c’mon man! Then if I do get a DD on J2, I still should have plenty of cash to buy at least 6inf to ensure a full load to dump on Asia (due to origianl numbers, I should have 2 units left over on Japan), and toy around in the Pacific with Aus/NZ.

[Mallery29]

All this hurts my head and is ruining my homework…I’m trying to learn Global here so I can be ready and bring pride to the Allies.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

France starts w/2 inf + 1 inf from Ger + 1 inf S. Europe, 2inf from G1, 3 from G2 = 9inf.

I could 7 inf, since you didn’t specify where the other 2 inf from G1 come from. But let’s do the full math then, shall we?

Starting ground forces:

• Soviet Union - 18 INF, 2 ART, 4 ARM (Total Unit Value - 82 IPCs). This excludes the 6 INF on the Far East territories.
• Germany - 19 INF, 3 ART, 8 ARM (TUV - 112) - excludes African units, 2 INF left to defend W. Europe and INF + ART from S. Europe sent to attack Egypt.

Assuming a R1 attack on West Russia and Ukraine with average losses, that results in -32 for Germany and -27 to 32 for the Soviets. Leaving a total of 80 TUV for Germany and 52 TUV for Russia. Russia buys 3 INF, 3 ARM, raising its total to 82 TUC.

Germany buys 3 INF, 5 ARM and 1 SUB on G1, kills the Russian armor on Ukraine, losing 1-2, depending on the number of units there. Total of units present on the Eastern front, 113-75

Russia buys 29 IPC, attacks Karelia, Belo and Ukraine, retaking all, and killing 3 INF while losing 1-2 INF.Total of units present on the Eastern front, 104-99

G2: Germany buys 1 ftr, and 32 IPC of ground units. Sends 5 INF to W. Europe and 1 INF + 1 ARM to Africa. Attacks the 3 Eastern territories with at least 6 INF and loses 2 INF, depending on Soviet infantry remaining, lets assume a total of 4 on the territories. Total: 107-87

R3: Russia buys 31 IPC, attacks Karelia, Belo and Ukraine, retaking all, and killing 4 INF while losing 2 INF.Total of units present on the Eastern front, 92-96

G3: Germany buys 1 ftr and 32 IPC of ground units. Sends 2 INF and 2 ARM to W. Europe, 1 INF and 1 ARM to Africa? That leaves only 8 TUV left to be sent towards Russia and it still has to find units to attack the 3 territories, otherwise it is losing income and leaving Soviet forces intact.

R4: UK retakes Karelia on UK3. Russia stacks Ukraine.

[Hobbes]

@Mallery29:

ack…hit wrong button…ok, continuing, I’m not saying that the US would/should buy bombers, I’m just saying if they DID buy them, my defense will hold.  If I’m looking to pluck AK/Hawaii/NZ/Aus away from the Allies, I will commit a carrier w/BB escort with a transport to handle the infedels…that still provides a carrier w/BB protecting the land bridge.  If Borneo fell at the beginning, I would just use the south battle group  to handle the cruiser and bring a transport with phillipinos and planes from the carrier to erradicate the British population. J2, they reunite around Japan crushing Burtyia (2BB, 6 planes, 1 bomber, tank, art, 6inf). Goodbye Russian backdoor. (J1 was 3inf/3trans)

And meanwhile the Allies remove Germany from Africa, and stall the Japanese advance through China and India. All because Japan leaves its fleet on SZ60 on the assumption that the US may choose to build bombers or Russia may decide to commit hara-kiri by moving its 6 INF to Buryatia on R2…

That strategy doesn’t work on the long run. Japan needs to pressure the Allies as quickly as possible on Asia/Africa, otherwise the Allies will outproduce the Axis.

[Alsch91]

@Hobbes:

I disagree. Russia SHOULD stack Ukraine, if it forces Germany to attack and achieve suffer a Phyrric victory on G2-4.

Ah okay, interesting.  Fair enough.
I’m more proficient in Global; moves like that tend to blow up in your face more often in that version, considering the scale of the game.

@Mallery29:

If I’m looking to pluck AK/Hawaii/NZ/Aus away from the Allies, I will commit a carrier w/BB escort with a transport to handle the infedels…that still provides a carrier w/BB protecting the land bridge.

We weren’t suggesting that a sub will be able to take down a CV/BB escort.
Rather-
If you do that, you have to have your remaining TTs in only one group, right?  Only 60 or 36.  You can’t do both, with subs ready in the Pacific.  That’s a big roadblock, if you can’t split up your mainland shucks.