I can belive a guy named Jesus.
What the bible says he does with the miracles and things like that is what I question.
When you say Roman historians do you mean from back then or now?
Actually there are some Roman historians who have documented Jesus’ existance. Sorry i can’t readily produce them. The fact that a “prophet” name Jesus wandered Palastine/Israel around 2000 years ago is rarely contested. Usually the question is “is he who he says he is, and did he truly die and rise from the grave”?
Agreed, but some things are’nt historical, like the great entry of Jesus in Jerusalem. It seems that the Romans did not see that :)
I would say he truly die :)
… but he did’nt rise from the grave
:lol:
:lol:
:lol:
Agreed, but some things are’nt historical, like the great entry of Jesus in Jerusalem. It seems that the Romans did not see that :)
Just because we cannot find documentation elsewhere does not mean it did not happen. There is not any documentation anywhere that I ate breakfast today; but that does not mean it did not happen.
If we find documentation stating otherwise, that is another situation. I have never read or heard of any historical documents or archaelogical finds which have proven the Bible false.
I haven’t found anything to prove the Bible as fact.
Are you aware of the Norse, the Celtic, the Shintoist prophesies ?
The above is what is known to everyone as mythology. None of it has come true. The Bible on the other hand has had prophesies which have been fulfilled. Mythology does not come true; it is fiction. I cannot see where comparisons between the Bible prophecy and the above mythology make sense.
What prophesies have “come true”?
And even if they did “come true” that alone is not proof that the Bible is true.
Jesus Christ is no more/less mythological/real then Zeus or, like FinsterniS says, the tooth fairy.
Agreed, but some things are’nt historical, like the great entry of Jesus in Jerusalem. It seems that the Romans did not see that :)
Just because we cannot find documentation elsewhere does not mean it did not happen. There is not any documentation anywhere that I ate breakfast today; but that does not mean it did not happen.
If we find documentation stating otherwise, that is another situation. I have never read or heard of any historical documents or archaelogical finds which have proven the Bible false.
There also is no record of the fact that I woke up this morning with a tail.
But now its gone.
Are you aware of the Norse, the Celtic, the Shintoist prophesies ?
The above is what is known to everyone as mythology. None of it has come true. The Bible on the other hand has had prophesies which have been fulfilled. Mythology does not come true; it is fiction. I cannot see where comparisons between the Bible prophecy and the above mythology make sense.
hahaha, Christianism is know to be a mythology too. By the way, Odinist still exist and while you won’t find lots of prophecies in it; there was prophecies and some were probably fullfilled (not the Ragnarock yet but the invasion of foreigner was). There was lots of account of vikings chief having vision of Hugin and Munin before a sucessfull raid. I don,t know a lot about celtic prophecies, but i am sure some have been fulfilled. Also the prophecies of the End of the World is very similar to the christian mythology. The only real distinction between the Christian Mythology and the Norse Mythology is that one is still very strong, while the other is making a near death experience :)
If you want to choose wisely your religion, you should look about other one before making a choise (not serious)
Just because we cannot find documentation elsewhere does not mean it did not happen. There is not any documentation anywhere that I ate breakfast today; but that does not mean it did not happen.
If we find documentation stating otherwise, that is another situation. I have never read or heard of any historical documents or archaelogical finds which have proven the Bible false.
True, but there is no reason to think it is true either…
If the bible is true, and god exist
Then why god would make him so hard to see with logic ?
Why so many scientist/philosopher are atheist ?
And if god does exist (and he does’nt)
Then the bible is making a very big error.
If the bible is true, and god exist
Then why god would make him so hard to see with logic ?
Why so many scientist/philosopher are atheist ?And if god does exist (and he does’nt)
Then the bible is making a very big error.
“why so many scientist/philosopher are atheist?”
wow that’s terrible. I seem to remember you jumping on someone for referencing the 85% of the world who are theist (i.e. YB and myself). Also i know a great many scientists who are not only theists, but Christians to boot. But of course this is meaningless unless the numbers are used to prove your point?
Also Christianity/religion is not about logic. We’ve been over this. It’s about faith. “with faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains”. Can you believe in something you cannot see? (besides the wind) You can not see, or prove (beyond a doubt) God, but you can see the effects that God has on the lives of his people and of the planet (unless you choose to ignore them/paint them with other attributes).
If God exists then the bible is making a big error? How?
And people assail the bible asking for documentation that it is factual/believable. This is not asked so much of other historical documents. Funny that people require other documents to prove the bible - other documents that require no proof as to their own validity? The thing is, the bible has been in circulation (various parts) for thousands of years. It and parts of it have been referenced for approximately the same period of time. In efforts to quash the bible and its teachings Rome systematically attempted to wipe it (and all Christians) out until 303 AD (give or take). It’s tough to find documentation with these set backs.
wow that’s terrible. I seem to remember you jumping on someone for referencing the 85% of the world who are theist (i.e. YB and myself). Also i know a great many scientists who are not only theists, but Christians to boot. But of course this is meaningless unless the numbers are used to prove your point?
tsssss, i NEVER said that was an argument for Atheism !!! I am just asking a question !!! I never even said Scientists were more atheist, i am just asking a question, i never use such fallacious argument to caution atheism. YB said the fact 85% of the poppulation is theist constitute an argument about the concept of god (and you support the fallacies), i just ask a question i never use that as an argument for atheism ! How can i be fallacious if i am not even making an argument ? It does not even implie anything, i have not said “why xx% of scientist and blablabla” !!!
Also Christianity/religion is not about logic. We’ve been over this. It’s about faith. “with faith the size of a mustard seed you could move mountains”. Can you believe in something you cannot see? (besides the wind) You can not see, or prove (beyond a doubt) God, but you can see the effects that God has on the lives of his people and of the planet (unless you choose to ignore them/paint them with other attributes).
I believe in lots of thing i cannot see. The effect of god are just effect of nature, you know what i think about this… Sure your god influence our planet, this is not an argument for it, other god had influence on the humanity; they are still just part of some mythology.
Also i repeat it; as long as religion is not in science & politic; the problem is minor. If you cannot put god in any logical theory, i doupt you could seriously put him in science or politic.
If God exists then the bible is making a big error? How?
If he does not exist the bible is making an error.
I would say he truly die :)
… but he did’nt rise from the graveThen what is your theory and what do you base it on? Please do not say it is because supernatural things do not happen. That is a predisposed bias. Evidence oposing Jesus not rising from the dead is what I am looking for.
Do you not think that the grave was empty? It has been shown to be empty.
grave robbers? Ppl who knew that they had to do it to make the “prophecy” come true?
And one more:
You don’t have to prove that he didn’t rise from his grave.
You have to prove that he did rise from his grave.
When ppl die, they don’t rise. You claim there is one exception to this rule, and you try to put the pressure for proving on me? Nice try. Failed :)
Your turn: prove that he has risen!
Agreed, but some things are’nt historical, like the great entry of Jesus in Jerusalem. It seems that the Romans did not see that :)
Just because we cannot find documentation elsewhere does not mean it did not happen. There is not any documentation anywhere that I ate breakfast today; but that does not mean it did not happen.
If we find documentation stating otherwise, that is another situation. I have never read or heard of any historical documents or archaelogical finds which have proven the Bible false.
Just because we don’t have documentation, means it didn’t necessarily not happen, right?
Well, we don’t have any documentation about the universe creating itself.
So, by this logic, we have now to look for documentation proving it was created?
Well, go ahead then.
I love these shouting matches between the theists (Moses’ Sister, Crypt, me, City, Wild, IZ,) and the Atheists (Fisternis, Falk, Ghoul, Yanny, Marshal) moderated by those on the fence (Moses, Disclaimer). Hundreds of hours of thought, typing, and research, dozens of threads, thousands of words of discussion and debate, and no one believes any different than when we started.
Maybe we should all convert to Budhism and call it even. :D
Then we can argue about whether or not Budhists believe in God. :)
There is a lot to back up the bible, the shroud of Turin, historical records, archeology, etc. And there is a lot of craziness like Unicorns and God becoming flesh. Net result, it takes faith to believe that it is the word of God.
I put 15 minutes into that post and I didn’t get anywhere. Oh well…
:lol:
YB - I agree. I feel active adult debate is healthy.
We came to the conclusion on earlier threads that the Bible could not be taken literally. Again, only the faithful can find rationale in it. I have little doubt that “Jesus” the man existed. Without the miracle and supernatural events, he was a revolutionary in religious thought. Proof in his resurrection (or not) is impossible to achieve and again left to the faithful.
If you want to explain the Bible in literal terms, explain this:
“Let US make man in OUR own image, according to OUR likeness”
GEN 1-26
Who are “US” and “OUR” ???
“that the sons of GOD saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful;
and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose”
GEN 6-2
and
“There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of GOD came in to the daughters of men and they bore children
to them. Those were the mighty men who were old, men of renown.”
GEN 6-4
Monotheistic God or alien intervention ???
Reference - Ibid
If you are going to respond, please read the entire thread (it is currently only one page long – of course my current posting may bump it to two). I already listed 12 above plus the messianic fulfillment. It is not proof that the entire Bible is true, but the likely hood of many of the prophesies I listed becoming fulfilled is larger than winning the lottery. If you put more than one of these prophesies together it is like trying to win the lottery multiple times. These prophesies show that there is inspired authorship.
There is little doubt to say that Christian prophesies do come true at a greater rate and are much more accurate and precise than do the prophesies of other religions. TM has a list of fullfilled revelations, so I can ask her to post them later on. Still, using prophesies (or ones that haven’t come true – yet) to prove or disprove the existence of God (or in this case, Jesus), isn’t the real way to go.
…moderated by those on the fence (Moses, Disclaimer).
There is nothing I like more than Good Religion and nothing I hate more than Bad Religion. It’s as simple as that. Of course the answer isn’t so black and white…
:lol:
Ha, as a thiest I predict that in the year 3041 AM (After Moses), the world will erupt in flames and humanity will be loss. Well, until then - I’m in the clear :wink:
Also how many “prophesies” and/or “miracles” do you need to prove God’s existance and the correctness of the Bible? How many false ones do you need to disprove it?
Alright they a couple prophesies which came true. However, after doing the research on these in comparison to Biblical prophesies fulfilled, anyone can notice that the odds of these prophesies being fulfilled are very different. The Bible prophesies are much more specific and put the odds against them. However, they were fulfilled.
There is probably not as much Norse prophecies. And i am curious about all those christian prophecies fullfilled, i know some of them (sadly) but i never find any to be very convincing; even when i was christian. Jesus did not said the end of the world would come before his generation die ?
Sounds like solid research here. This does nothing to help your argument.
I am sorry but the last thing i care with religion is prophecies, these can be interpret from a lot of way so it is useless. I prefer to look at those religious people, look at history and look at the nature to form my idea. Also i don’t know about all religion and i doupt you can say oterwise.
The shroud of turin; everything seem to point an hoax (microbiology & C14 dating), still lot of people believe it to be true… Same thing goes with prophecies, people believe what they want to believe, and they see what they want to see. It seem to be very hard to be objective.
People want to believe in mythology; well they will believe in mythology even if it is against science.
I agree. I have weighed the evidence each religion claims to have or has shown (as in Christianity). After my review of the evidence, the choice was easy.
Well me too. Christianism offer a lot, but i don’t want to live in a lie.
And about the those who do not want to find god, this can hardly apply to me as i was trying to understand him with science before beign atheist. This is a very easy escuse…
