(Help) Germany starting move for Barbarossa (no sealion faint)

[seth4god]

@Cow:

G1 barb is fun, but there is little to gain.

Au contraire mon fraire. You kill 7 infantry or about half of USSR’s starting income. And USSR can’t retake EPL. You also threaten S. Ukr right away, forcing USSR to either stack it, abandon it, or trade for a worthless terr costing them even more infantry. Baltic will usually be countered as well. So a lot of times, USSR is going to spend another 4-5 infantry on those counters. That brings us up to about 33-36ipc worth of stuff, or pretty much their entire first turn’s worth of ipcs. So now Germany has built up more firepower and starts off with much more to begin with while USSR is basically just over even and down a terr they won’t ever get back.

But the biggest thing it gives you is a base(epl) to stage your bombers out of a turn sooner. The sooner you start the bombing campaign, the sooner you reap the benefits and the weaker USSR is. G1 take EPL, G2 land bombers in EPL, G3 SBR Russia w/3 bombers, G4+ sbr Moscow with 3-4 bomber/turn as needed. Waiting for a G2 attack means the SBR campaign looks like this; G1 nothing, G2 take EPL/Baltic, G3 stage bombers, G4 SBR away.

Granted there are other ways of starting a SBR campaign sooner. I mean if you really wanted to, you could land those bombers on Romania G1 and plop an AB there, heck do Poland or Hungary if you really wanted to. G2 they take off and land in EPL which you took G1. Which means you have to kick things off G1 anyway, so why spend the $15(half your first turn’s income) on an AB which probably won’t ever come into play again when you’ll need the ground troops to keep the pressure up.

Besides, there’s no way you can use those bombers against sz110/111 if you want them to land in position to SBR starting G2. So now you’re giving up hitting at least one of those fleets and giving UK an instant naval core to build around to start landing troops sooner. Not worth it imho, so G3 is the most realistic SBR start point and I’d rather not spend the cash for an AB when I can take and hold a territory in range of Moscow on G1.

[Spendo02]

@seththenewb:

Besides, there’s no way you can use those bombers against sz110/111 if you want them to land in position to SBR starting G2. So now you’re giving up hitting at least one of those fleets and giving UK an instant naval core to build around to start landing troops sooner. Not worth it imho, so G3 is the most realistic SBR start point and I’d rather not spend the cash for an AB when I can take and hold a territory in range of Moscow on G1.

Can’t you reach Leningrad on G2 from wgr?  I mean its not Moscow, but its a start.  I do see the point in starting early against Russia.

[seth4god]

@Spendo02:

@seththenewb:

Besides, there’s no way you can use those bombers against sz110/111 if you want them to land in position to SBR starting G2. So now you’re giving up hitting at least one of those fleets and giving UK an instant naval core to build around to start landing troops sooner. Not worth it imho, so G3 is the most realistic SBR start point and I’d rather not spend the cash for an AB when I can take and hold a territory in range of Moscow on G1.

Can’t you reach Leningrad on G2 from wgr?  I mean its not Moscow, but its a start.  I do see the point in starting early against Russia.

True, I guess I should’ve specified the most rational starting round to SBR on Moscow itself is G3. I don’t usually like to SBR the minors, especially sukr & nov, because they fall pretty fast with this strat. USSR is going to be backpedaling their stack(s) anyway. So they can just build from Moscow & Volgo anyway, leaving you to pay for the damage. USSR will eventually have to pay for the damage to Moscow whereas it’s counter intuitive for them to pay to fix up an IC that’s going to be in enemy hands soon. If you were waiting for a G3 attack, then bombing those minors might help dislodge the Russians from them.

[Dawkland]

@g�ddan:

Hi all,
I’m new to A&A and I’ve looked everywhere here for a detailed starting move for Germany to go vs USSR, but haven’t found one.
The player Cow was mentioning something along these lines in his Japan playbook thread:
“I seldom do sea lion honestly. I just push russia. I don’t do anything fancy. round 1 france and yugo that’s it. finns and that other spot for extra infs.  g2 push everything up to russia. take normandy 2 guys and air. the rest push. then you push russia g3.”

So I’m asking for detailed buy and move for G1 for Barbarossa with the intention to hit Moscow as early as possible.
Thank you in advance.

I’ve never been a big fan of a G1 Barbarossa.  I tried it once and it didn’t work.  You go into Russia half ass basically.  I find that a G2 Barbarossa is best, it still allows you to hit the Soviets fast but that extra round makes all the difference getting the full force of your infantry in.  I just finished a game with my friends last night where I played Germany and I won.  I believe I attacked Moscow round 7 or so and when the battle was over I still had 15 tanks left.  My positition in Western Europe was very strong.  The Brits and Americans took Spain and America was shucking 5 inf and 5 art to spain everyround on top of building three tanks a round by a minor ic there.  They still couldnt take Paris.  Here’s how I started the game:  first purchase was 1 destroyer, 1 Art, 6 Inf.  I started by sending all available ground units into Paris including the 3 tanks from S. Germany with the exception of 2 infantry that I left in Holland.  I strafed Yugoslavia by sending all the inf in S. Germany with the fighter in slovakia and Tac in Poland on there way to southern Italy.  That worked perfectly Yugo was left with 1 inf for the Italians.  I then bombed the Airfield in England so they couldn’t scramble I brought in 1 tac and 1 strat ( the tac was an insurance policy if the airfield was successful with its aa shot) I also used 2 fighters to escort the bomber and tac.  The airfield was taken out, I lost 1 fighter and the brits lost the French fighter. I then sent 2 subs on the fleet off England ( no Scrambles now) and I sent 2 subs and my Battleship against the fleet off Scotland.  I also sent the rest of my available air into both battles.  I lost all the subs and 2 aircraft I believe but the UK fleet was removed in both areas.  The above assault on the UK fleet is a gamble, if the dice dont go your way it can be catastrophic.  My result was about average or maybe a bit above average.  Its worth it though because now he cant send that fleet to the med to cripple the Italians.  My non-combats were the usual moves into Bulgaria and Finland.  I also non-combat everything else to the front with the Soviets.  The next round I purchased 6 mechs and 6 tanks for Germany and 2 Inf for Paris.  I sent everything into the Baltic states going to take novgorod and i a turn or 2 later I sent forces to take the minor ic on Ukraine.  I then went on to take Volgograd and just kept pumping tanks and mechs and bombers from my new russian ic’s.  I also started strat bombing Moscow that helped reduce the size of his stack……think he had 47 inf when i attacked.  This is the best way to play Germany I believe.  One thing to keep in mind is a strong Italy.  The tac and fighter I sent to Rome stayed there until round three, they helped clear the Med of UK ships this allowed Italy to grow strong.  Toward the end of the game Italy was makin around 40 IPC’s a round.  It’s so important to have a strong Italy to help defend W. Europe.  One last thing to mention.  I was helped greatly by getting advanced Artilery.  We play with a house rule that any nation that earns 30+ IPC’s gets one free tech role and germany got advanced art.  That did make it a bit easier but I still would’ve won without that.  Anyway I hope this wordy mistake prone run-on post helps you out  :-D

[Spendo02]

So been playing against the AI on TripleA, to speed up experimentation on G1 vs G2 Barb.

I’ve done each three times and I am going to be honest I feel more comfortable with a G2 move on a single basis:

Getting diced on G1 is Bad News Bears in Russia.

With that said, I prefer no feint at all and instead go G1 10 Inf.  I prefer 5 Arm 5 Mech 1 CV on G2 and I land 2 Ftr on the CV and keep the Tac’s on Wgr to scramble.  Its too early for the UK to mass an attack with G1 attacks on SZ110 and SZ111, so you buy yourself 1-2 rounds before you have to worry about landings in Wgr/Norway/Denmark.

ESSENTIALS:
NCM your AA guns into newly taken territories to deter Russia from a counter that involves its aircraft.  Basically its a free 3 hits you can absorb before taking attack value unit losses with the added bonus of clipping out an aircraft or two.

AB in E.Poland on the round you make your move into and can hold Belarus.  This enables your Bombers and Tac (is TripA rules wrong for TacB able to hit IC’s?) to hit Moscow and land in Belarus.

I’ve found the G2 attack to require both the Yugo Strafe and taking Bulgaria on G1 to be VERY important to reinforcing your flanks and keeping the pressure on in tough to remove stacks of units.

Now don’t get me wrong, the AI is nothing in regard to a human player, but the overall strategy feels safer and stronger on G2.  Even if you CAN eliminate a solid economic value of units from Russia on G1.

[seth4god]

Dawk, all combat is simultaneous. So you can’t destroy the AB to prevent scrambling on that same turn. The attacker makes all his combat movements and then the defender has the option of scrambling before any dice are rolled. Then and only then do you start rolling for the various battles. What you’d be doing in essence is hitting the airbase after his air is already off the ground.

[Dawkland]

@seththenewb:

Dawk, all combat is simultaneous. So you can’t destroy the AB to prevent scrambling on that same turn. The attacker makes all his combat movements and then the defender has the option of scrambling before any dice are rolled. Then and only then do you start rolling for the various battles. What you’d be doing in essence is hitting the airbase after his air is already off the ground.

Ok that sounds like it makes sense I guess we’ve been playing wrong.  Almost no reason to hit an airfield then because they’re so cheap to repair and scrambling is so worthwhile.  Anyway that being the case I would’ve done it a bit differently then.  I would’ve hit the seazone next to England with everything I had and whether he scrambled his fighters or not he would’ve lost that fleet there.  I would’ve made sure to keep the Battleship so that it would block the fleet next to Scotland from moving to the med that round and so that it would possibly be in range of my air and subs round 2.  My intent on that attack on his entire fleet was to assure that Italy would have a few turns to grow.  If he didnt Bite and moved the fleet up around Scotland out of range of my air it would only buy Italy one more turn but it’s better than nothing.  That being said it would also give me an extra turn to reposition my aircraft to hit them if they tried to come into the med.

[Guest]

The trick is to have Italy bomb the airbase so it is damaged and they can’t scramble when Germany attacks.  Put the Italy airforce in France ahead of time so you can send escort fighters with the bomber.

EDIT: sorry I didn;t realize he was talking about G1.  the italians bomb the airbase thing is a sea lion bit.

[seth4god]

@Dawkland:

@seththenewb:

Dawk, all combat is simultaneous. So you can’t destroy the AB to prevent scrambling on that same turn. The attacker makes all his combat movements and then the defender has the option of scrambling before any dice are rolled. Then and only then do you start rolling for the various battles. What you’d be doing in essence is hitting the airbase after his air is already off the ground.

Ok that sounds like it makes sense I guess we’ve been playing wrong.  Almost no reason to hit an airfield then because they’re so cheap to repair and scrambling is so worthwhile.  Anyway that being the case I would’ve done it a bit differently then.  I would’ve hit the seazone next to England with everything I had and whether he scrambled his fighters or not he would’ve lost that fleet there.  I would’ve made sure to keep the Battleship so that it would block the fleet next to Scotland from moving to the med that round and so that it would possibly be in range of my air and subs round 2.  My intent on that attack on his entire fleet was to assure that Italy would have a few turns to grow.  If he didnt Bite and moved the fleet up around Scotland out of range of my air it would only buy Italy one more turn but it’s better than nothing.  That being said it would also give me an extra turn to reposition my aircraft to hit them if they tried to come into the med.

The fleet from sz111 can’t reach the med in one turn regardless of your BB’s placement, save your BB or send it against UK.

[Cow]

I just don’t like 3 inf and 1 armor vs 3 inf… those aren’t incredible odds.

[GuamSolo]

Young Grasshopper has a detailed account of a G1 Barbarossa in a thread on page 2.  Interesting: he moved his Japan fleet into the Med after taking India and causing havoc in southern Africa.  It is a good read.

[Spendo02]

@FM7:

Young Grasshopper has a detailed account of a G1 Barbarossa in a thread on page 2.  Interesting: he moved his Japan fleet into the Med after taking India and causing havoc in southern Africa.  It is a good read.

For an American player who invests heavily in the Pacific in the early rounds and does not expect this, imagine the shock of realizing you are going to have to chase the Japanese navy all the way around the world in order to confront it with all those ships in the Pacific.

Of course they could always try to just take Tokyo, but I don’t think the realization on round 4 leaves enough time to stop an Axis win in Europe with a Japanese Navy helping Italy sack and hold Egypt - the prize needed post Moscow falling.

[Cow]

G1 and J1 games get wild :D