12L, AA50-41, Ol' Blood&Guts (Axis) vs. Boldfresh (Allies+7), no tech, + NOs

[boldfresh]

now you are just being petty.  yes we can wait for the ruling.  either way you lose this game so i don’t really care - was just trying to avoid a needless delay.

[Guest]

@Boldfresh:

now you are just being petty.  yes we can wait for the ruling.  either way you lose this game so i don’t really care - was just trying to avoid a needless delay.

I guess not  :|

The map did not show an infantry from Russia as a noncom. It showed a failure to move it in an attack that was posted. IF Russia had been short one infantry this would be a different story. They were not.

[boldfresh]

by the way, since the misunderstanding we had last year i thought we made peace and have some really good games, of which i think this has been another one.  as i said, i really don’t think this is worth fighting over or even holding up the game for, but yes, we can wait for the ruling. Â

i just hope you are not doing this because of the thing of tanks going to bst - that was a completely different scenario than this.

here’s hoping we can put this behind us quickly and continue as we have been.

thanks,

[boldfresh]

i think you are not quite understanding my point.  the posted map showed 6 inf in ukr and 1 inf in euk, right?

what i’m saying is, i did not need to type a noncom move of inf to euk because i left an inf there on the map (i moved him back there from ukr but forgot to delete the typing in the combat move lines).  do you see what i mean?

[Guest]

@Boldfresh:

here’s hoping we can put this behind us quickly and continue as we have been.

I agree

[boldfresh]

it’s just a discepancy between the typing and the map.  when that happens, you bring it up, which you did, but you did not ask me to confirm, you continued with the japan turn.  if you thought i had actually made a strategic error and had said to me that the map was in discrepancy with the typing, please confirm that this is what you want and posted the map.  if i confirm yes, then you are free to continue.  but at that point, i would have said, no i intended to take one less inf to ukr in combat.  then you could have said, no all combat moves must stand as typed, thus there must be 7 inf in ukr, i would have responded ok, then i will noncombat an infantry from russia to euk and posted the map.

i don’t think we need to get upset over this.  whenever possible i try to reason things like this out rather than delay a game and take up moderator time - it’s always best if it can be worked out between the players directly.  if you still disagree, we can either continue a civil discussion in the hopes of continuing this fast and furious game, or we can wait for a formal ruling.

thanks,

[Gargantua]

Ladies… please.

In the name of Axis and Allies!?!?!

I’mma going to review this independantly!

[Gargantua]

Well…

This quote kind of says it all.

I know that may seem to contradict what I said about typing of combat moves but for me that only applies after a dice has been rolled.

“for me”, “only applies” Are the key words/themes that are really the primary causes of this situation.

In many ways you are BOTH right, and both suffering from the same error, a unit appearing on the map, that contradicts with the typed posting.

---

What’s difficult here, is IN FAIRNESS if a piece has been altered “post” move, because of an error, any player in my opinion, and in the interest of best gaming practice -be allowed- to adjust his pieces (In this case moving an inf from Russia), because the map reflection at the end of his turn was incorrect.

However, because of Your policies about the written text superceding the map, and your clarity on the issue, BF,  Ol Guts has every right to hold you to your own standard.

---

My Reccomended ruling: (Not that I’m anybody)

BF, the mistake happend on your turn, and as you said, you think regardless you are going to win this game.  Even if you think this move could upset this plan/game, because of the -typical- standard you’ve always represented in your gaming, I think you’ve got to eat some humble pie here, and in the interest of good gaming suck it up, and Give ol guts the benefit of the doubt.

That Said,

Ol Guts, I’m sure you could benefit from the open EUK Corridor, and in my opinion you have the right to,  but even when all is fair in love and war…  an error was made here, and you know, that in any game - you always want to play your opponent at his best, because that’s what brings out your best.  If I was you personally, I would allow him to move the infantry from RUS to EUK - Unless I thought it would cost me the game.

That’s an independent two cents.  I’ll let you two finish it off - or hopefully a mod comments soon!

[Gargantua]

Oh, and Being fair is a door that swings BOTH ways…

[cts17]

My 2 cents…. I think that mistakes in typing happen all the time. I personally always review my map before posting, but in a line of typing, somethings just get missed.

But. Boldfresh started this game saying that the written code is the law, denying BG the opportunity with his armor…
So stick to your code, Boldfresh!

[gamerman01]

Since all these non-mods are throwing in their 2 cents, here are mine

This is an open and shut case.

The German/Russian front is unaffected by Japan anyway.  Clearly Bold changed his mind about the combat movement and forgot to correct the typing (he does this very frequently).

OBG noted the difference between map and typing.  Instead of making a decision about what Bold meant to do, obviously he should let Bold clarify the difference.  Doing Japan is irrelevant because the EUk question is completely independent of Japan.

There is a huge difference between BSt and EUk.  You can’t change combat moves after throwing dice, obviously.  Clarifying a difference between typing and map when no dice or movements have been made subsequent to the discrepancy is no problem.  Find out what the intent was, and make the reconciling move.  Bold says 6 infantry in Ukr and 1 in EUk.  So put it where he intended.  Nothing has happened in the game since the Russian move (dice or moves) that should preclude this clarification.  Any reasonable moderator would say the same.

That said, I don’t see what the big deal is.  EUk open does not give OBG any great options that I can see.  If you’re worried about a double attack on Cau, Bold, then move UK in to Cau before Italy can go or something.

Jeez, from the discussion I thought Russia was going to imminently fall over this or something.  Then I looked at the map.

Happy gaming, dudes.

[boldfresh]

fyi - i said “COMBAT” move typing.  not noncombat typing.  if you read my posts, i said that if a player types up an entire combat move and then posts it but has not yet thrown any dice, it can be changed as long as no DICE have been rolled.  my point for sticking to combat typing as posted in due to how the DICE may affect the moves.

cts - i am willing to stick to my code.  i said if he wanted to strictly enforce the combat move typing, i would be fine with that but would then want to NONCOMBAT move an infantry to euk.  combat moves and noncombat moves are two ENTIRELY different things.  you don’t know what a guys map looked like in the combat move.  he might say, oh i had two tanks going to bst that were there on my map but not on the typing.  who knows if that’s true.  but when you see the final posted map and the NONCOMBAT moves as typed do not match the map, then you must ask the player.  since the combat and noncombat moves were done TOGETHER in this case, there is no issue of the dice affecting the move. Â

i guess OBG is saying the noncombat moves matched the map, but the infantry in euk was moved to ukr in COMBAT.  But then a correct map would have shown 7 infantry in ukr and none in euk. i’m saying that i intended to have euk occupied as the map showed. Â

what the issue is here is that the combined combat and noncombat moves did not match the map.  if OBG thought i was making a strategic error, he could have asked for clarification of the map vs. the combat/noncombat moves.  in this case combat and noncombat run together because no dice were rolled.  this eliminates any ambiguity for what was happening BEFORE DICE ARE THROWN which is the whole point of my policy of no changes to COMBAT moves as typed.

in my opinion, in the interests of fair play, a discrepancy between the map and the typing of noncombat moves (in this case as i said, they were essentially the same since no dice were thrown) should be brought to the other player for confirmation.

thanks for everyone’s thoughts, we will see how the moderators rule.

[boldfresh]

just saw gamer’s post.

gamer - yes there is no IMMINENT danger to russia, but I want the option to do other things with the brits and i dont want to give up the russian NO either, especially for no reason.  if the moderators rule in OBG’s favor, i will have to reassess the situation.  as i said, i don’t think it’s a big difference either way and i feel the allies are in good position to win, but since it is a league game and OBG just beat me in the tourney, i want to perserve the option to make my best moves, especially the way i have been fighting the dice in the tourney and this game.

thanks again for the thoughts guys.

[gamerman01]

Right

Well, you should definitely get your way.  I’m afraid OBG doesn’t have a leg to stand on here.  Russia rolled no dice.  He checked the map and saw the discrepancy and even noted it.  At that point the player making the discrepancy should be asked to resolve it before the game continues.  That’s all.

[boldfresh]

@Gargantua:

Well…

This quote kind of says it all.

I know that may seem to contradict what I said about typing of combat moves but for me that only applies after a dice has been rolled.

“for me”, “only applies” Are the key words/themes that are really the primary causes of this situation.

In many ways you are BOTH right, and both suffering from the same error, a unit appearing on the map, that contradicts with the typed posting.

---

What’s difficult here, is IN FAIRNESS if a piece has been altered “post” move, because of an error, any player in my opinion, and in the interest of best gaming practice -be allowed- to adjust his pieces (In this case moving an inf from Russia), because the map reflection at the end of his turn was incorrect.

However, because of Your policies about the written text superceding the map, and your clarity on the issue, BF,  Ol Guts has every right to hold you to your own standard.

---

My Reccomended ruling: (Not that I’m anybody)

BF, the mistake happend on your turn, and as you said, you think regardless you are going to win this game.  Even if you think this move could upset this plan/game, because of the -typical- standard you’ve always represented in your gaming, I think you’ve got to eat some humble pie here, and in the interest of good gaming suck it up, and Give ol guts the benefit of the doubt.

That Said,

Ol Guts, I’m sure you could benefit from the open EUK Corridor, and in my opinion you have the right to,  but even when all is fair in love and war…  an error was made here, and you know, that in any game - you always want to play your opponent at his best, because that’s what brings out your best.  If I was you personally, I would allow him to move the infantry from RUS to EUK - Unless I thought it would cost me the game.

That’s an independent two cents.  I’ll let you two finish it off - or hopefully a mod comments soon!

“In many ways you are BOTH right, and both suffering from the same error, a unit appearing on the map, that contradicts with the typed posting.”

Garg, the issue of OBG asking to send more units to a battle after dice had already been rolled was not an issue of a “unit appearing on the map”.  If the procedure was to type combat moves and then post a map showing the combat moves and asking the defending player to confirm before dice are thrown, and on that map the two tanks in question were shown in bst but not in the typing, then I would agree with you.  then it would be silly to say that the combat moves as typed are final, because there is a map to confirm them.

in this case, combat and noncombat occurred simultaneously and interchangeably, no dice involved.  what if i had not typed the walkin of ukr in the combat move but then typed 5 infantry from cau to ukr in the noncombat move.  and i then assert that i moved one of the inf from cau to ukr in combat but neglected to type it.  i guess one could argue that the letter of the law would say the combat could not occur, but i think reasonable minds would disagree, since no dice had been thrown and combat/noncombat occurred in one post.

think about it.

[Guest]

@Gargantua:

However, because of Your policies about the written text superceding the map, and your clarity on the issue, BF,� Ol Guts has every right to hold you to your own standard.

@cts17:

But. Boldfresh started this game saying that the written code is the law, denying BG the opportunity with his armor…
So stick to your code, Boldfresh!

My point exactly….no double standards

[Gargantua]

I’m afraid OBG doesn’t have a leg to stand on here

Although OBG - in all fairness, should not have proceeded with the Japanese move, until the discrepancy was resolved.

I respectfully DISAGREE with the statement that he doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

Why does OBG have to review the legality of Boldfreshes moves constantly, especially in games, where he is offered no quarter or mistake/error remission?

If the shoe was on the other fit, BF wouldn’t be backing down either.

Also,  I’m a player that plays this game TURNS in advance.  I don’t buy the arguement that Japan’s turn has no effect on Russian Moves.  It doesn’t matter.  Dice are rolled, I proved this arguement on a J1 Global - in which Russia was still a neutral nation.  Those tanks could end up in India, or China or elsewhere in a few turns, and once ANY dice are rolled - everything is locked in.  Unless the entire turn is invalidated.

[Gargantua]

It’s a sticky situation, but out of honor - Boldfresh should eat the dirt here.

[gamerman01]

Garg you’re just addicted to playing devil’s advocate

Disagree that Bold would do the same as OBG.  Bold can see the difference between the situations.

OBG does not have to review the legality of Bold’s moves constantly any more than any of us.  Playing with battlemap and typing, I ALWAYS check everything that’s typed and everything on the map before proceeding.  I have VERY few misunderstandings like this that way, too.

When do I get to play you and kick your ass?

[boldfresh]

OBG, it is just not a double standard.  no one hates a double standard more than me.  I would completely eat the dirt if it was a double standard. Â

Garg, what you don’t seem to understand is the difference between combat and noncombat moves and how dice are involved.  combat moves as typed cannot be verified on a map.

if obg had been keeping his own map and not using mine, then there would at least be a reasonable argument, and i would probably just agree to go with his map.  but since he is not, and actually brought up the discrepancy, if he just waits for me to clarify (which would have taken minutes) we would be happily playing and not wasting time on this discussion.