Current actions in the Middle East
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" Why should we help them out? Have a heart dammit! They need help, History has condemned them to suffer. "
I agree with you. But shouldn’t we first spend our money, time, and resources on helping our own people before helping another country out? I know lots of friends in the inner city ghettos that could use that money and “extra boast” (after all, everything isn’t just money. Remember if you teach a man to fish…) just as much as the starving man in Africa. Though Africa was wrecked (in to a point, still does) by capitalism and slavery partly attributed to USA, I say help a brother before helping a neighbor.
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On 2002-06-03 16:43, TG Moses VI wrote:
" Why should we help them out? Have a heart dammit! They need help, History has condemned them to suffer. "I agree with you. But shouldn’t we first spend our money, time, and resources on helping our own people before helping another country out? I know lots of friends in the inner city ghettos that could use that money and “extra boast” (after all, everything isn’t just money. Remember if you teach a man to fish…) just as much as the starving man in Africa. Though Africa was wrecked (in to a point, still does) by capitalism and slavery partly attributed to USA, I say help a brother before helping a neighbor.
How about the native americans? I think the best thing america can be is non-interventionists. but we need our oil. if we are going to have a heart and help countries we screwed, we have to start with south america. We have robbed land from the mexicans and screwed south america in the past, and still do mess around too much.
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The government does help subsidize Native America rights and give them special benefits (though they will never come close to what we did to them). Mexico, South America? But I still think that a strong, prosperous America (as a whole) would be better off helping other countries than if it had remained so dangerously divided between the wealthy and poor.
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How does America support terrorism more than Arafat and Sadam
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Arafat does belong in the same category as Sadam
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It is true that the U.S. should stop handing out guns. You know what the biggest U.S. export is (by dolars) ? Weapons Also, the U.S. has been destructive unintentionally, we have crushed local economies by exporting used clothing.
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The U.S. can’t solve the World’s problems.
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A blockade between the U.S. and Europe would hurt Europe more than the U.S. The U.S. has a trade deficiet with Europe in Europe’s favor. Which means that money leaves the American economy and enters the European. Same with Asia, Africa, and Austrailia. If the U.S. stopped trading with the rest of the world, global economic collapse. If the French do the same, the French people suffer.
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On 2002-06-05 15:34, yourbuttocks wrote:
- How does America support terrorism more than Arafat and Sadam?
Yourbuttocks, ever hear of Imperialists? America is the modern day Imperialist power. Sure, we don’t militarily country countries like Imperialists during the 1800s. We control them economically. We place a Puppet Goverment in the small countries, furnish them with riches, then procede to take the recources of that country for ourselves, barely paying the country (which is paid in Weapons as you said yourself, to keep the country “stable”.
Saddam is not a terrorist. Saddam is a dictator, yes. Saddam is a bad person, yes, but name one incident where he used terrorism? Before the Oslo Accords, Arafat was a terrorist.
America can’t solve the world’s problems, but as the only Superpower we do our best to help. I believe it was the 1700s Philosophe Vultar that said “It is the job of the fortunate to use their fortune to help those of less fortune” or something along those lines.
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We cannot win. If we help, then
1)it’s not enough, and/or
2)another country complains, “it’s not fair!”,and/or
3) it’s meddling, manipulation, or imperialism, and/or
4) no ‘strings’ should be attached(free money with no results necessary).
All of these have happened before.
Now, one suggestion is to forgive the debtor nations the full financial debt. If we do that, then who will pay and when? That would impact our banking system, which in turn would impact individual taxpayers(some of US). This would impact all Americans, which would then impact the economy of almost the entire world. Down the tubes.
Oh, wait! The stage is set for a one world socialist government. Our salvation is at hand.
First, however, methinks we should negotiate and pay reparations to the Native Americans whose families we have killed and lands we have stolen, African-Americans who are victims of pre-Civil War slavery and post-Civil war servitude , Africans whose families have been decimated in slave trade, Arabs whose oil we stolen for a century, etc.
After they’ve all signed for acceptance and America has the money back then we can forgive the national debts and everyone will start with nothing. Oh,darn it! I guess we’ll still depend on all our technology and machines that won’t work because we won’t have the money to buy the oil to run it. We broke the system and now everyone is mad at us.
I’ve got it! Let’s reverse the process. First, we forgive all the debts. Then we won’t be able to pay back anybody as the system will collapse.
It’s shorter and everybody’s still mad at us.
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“Praise the Lord and pass the taters!” - Xi -
I agree that Imperialism is evil. However, it is it’s own seperate evil from terrorism.
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“Yourbuttocks, ever hear of Imperialists? America is the modern day Imperialist power. Sure, we don’t militarily country countries like Imperialists during the 1800s. We control them economically. We place a Puppet Goverment in the small countries, furnish them with riches, then procede to take the recources of that country for ourselves, barely paying the country (which is paid in Weapons as you said yourself, to keep the country “stable”.”
Examples? IMO, it isn’t just America, but all of the rich nations that control the poor ones (America, western european nations, Japan…) America isn’t the imperialist power.
“Saddam is not a terrorist. Saddam is a dictator, yes. Saddam is a bad person, yes, but name one incident where he used terrorism? Before the Oslo Accords, Arafat was a terrorist.”
Arafat still is. He ordered attacks directly! Oh wait, he doesn’t do that ALL the time, at times he just lets the attacks happen. As for Saddam, he is worse than any terrorist, he is a Hitler.
“America can’t solve the world’s problems, but as the only Superpower we do our best to help.”
Our help is not wanted, and when given really doesn’t help.
“I believe it was the 1700s Philosophe Vultar that said “It is the job of the fortunate to use their fortune to help those of less fortune” or something along those lines.”"
Voltaie was a crazy nut. His ideas contradicted each other all the time. I would not take anything he takes seriously…he supported absolute monarchy! Meanwhile he supported a government for the people.
This is my last post of tonight…gotta go.
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Vultar supported England’s Goverment System, far from an Absolute Monarchy.
One Example of Imperialism? Diamond Mining in Kenya, their leaders let us mine for Diamonds, we sell them weapons.
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that was me
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Arafat govermenent doest endorse terrorism.
Israel does. Stating Arafat is making terrorism is as dumm as those who said Castro was making weapons of mass destruction. Arafat is in a very, very bad position.And If israel is on self-defence, why so many palestinian die ? And mostly innocent. I am not on any side, palestinian terrorism is sure inhuman. But theres far more innocent death on the palestinian side, even if they are not all (but most are) innocent.
DEATH STATISTICS from December 9, 1987
December 9, 1998
Today, December 9th is the 11th anniversary of the start of the Intifada.
According to B’Tselem (www.btselem.org) in that time, in Israeli and the
occupied territories,1,361 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces
139 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli civilians
1,500 TOTALand….
265 Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinians
129 Israeli forces have been killed by Palestinians
394 TOTAL -
Vultar supported England’s Goverment System, far from an Absolute Monarchy.
he did, but he also didn’t…he’s nuts!
http://www.historyteacher.net/EuroProjects/DBQ1998-1999/DBQGlossary 7-99.htm
check this link at the bottom
“One Example of Imperialism? Diamond Mining in Kenya, their leaders let us mine for Diamonds, we sell them weapons.”
I have heard some of this, but not the american government directly related. any links.
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FS, if I remember correctly each time the Intifada is acted out, the Israeli gov’t. responds disproportionately(meaning about 10x as strong as the Palestinian attack). This has been recognized as the most efficient and successful reponse to any attack for a long time. If you destroy your opponent the conflict is over. If you crush your opponent so hard that maximum effort must be expended by them to recover/relocate then the conflict is, at the worst, delayed for a long time.
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“I do believe in kooks. I do believe in kooks. I DO believe, I DO believe, I DO believe in kooks!” - Xi -
The Israelis(I) have been forced to the table by their allies twice to offer all or almost all the Freed territories back to the Palestinians§. Both times the offer has been refused. The P want the elimination of the I nation and I people.
The territories are not occupied. I was attacked repeatedly by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan('56, '67, '73 if I remember correctly). They won the wars and took the territories to insure their continued security. The P (there was and is no such nation as Palestine, it is just a region) were not allowed to leave the area by the arab countries(the most likely to recieve them). The arab countries wanted to keep them as a thorn in I’s side.
The I gov’t. built whole neighborhoods of apartment buildings for the P, but the P leadership wanted to maintain control so they did not allow them to move in under threat of violence.Many arab (oil) countries could alleviate their people’s problems. However, to remain in power they use the news media(they control) to convince the uneducated that Israel and Israelis are the problem. Israel manipulates the Great Satan(read USA) and the Little Satan(read USSR/Russia) to keep the Islam and Muslims down.
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“Ich bin ein Berliner!” - It coulda been an all Soviet Berlin if they had kept up the blockade. Many historians say we could not militarily defend it or take it. Many economists say we were stretched almost to the financial (not worth keeping up)breaking point. - Xi -
FS, if I remember correctly each time the Intifada is acted out, the Israeli gov’t. responds disproportionately(meaning about 10x as strong as the Palestinian attack). This has been recognized as the most efficient and successful reponse to any attack for a long time. If you destroy your opponent the conflict is over. If you crush your opponent so hard that maximum effort must be expended by them to recover/relocate then the conflict is, at the worst, delayed for a long time.
Still, the conflict is opposing two fanatic.
The islamic extremist group.
The israelian* governement (less fanatic, but a little more powerful).But the logic of Sharon of “they attack then we’ll attack even harder” is a big problem. Its a vicious circle, violence breed violence, each time the israelian governement kill palestinian they give people there a reason to be angry. Each time palestinian terrorism are killing israelian
they give a good reason to Sharon to use again more violence…And to people here who think Arafat is “evil” and he do not want peace and blablabla. Who, between Sharon & Arafat, want an international police ?
- its israelian or israeli ?
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Terrorist attacks were down when israel has military forces in occupation…when they withdraw they resume.
The wall works around gaza strip, and hopefully it will bring peace to the “west bank.”
“The Israelis(I) have been forced to the table by their allies twice to offer all or almost all the Freed territories back to the Palestinians§.”
Barak wanted a quick peace treaty and made large concessions for a victor power. Arafat’s people did not want peace and when he came back w/out it they were very happy.
Barak offered only 80% of the land right away, and the Israeli military would have access of strategic areas for 20 more years.
Some reasons besides the obvious arafat said no:
He would of not (he as in “palestinian people”), had full control of the areas water supply. I’m no water technician guy, so i could not tell you if that water was used by israel as well.One third of jerusalem would be his, closed off from west jersualem. this would ruin the areas economy.
Now israel claims all of jerusalem is their’s. Arafat, just make peace and actually try to stop terror…we all forgot how he used to hand out guns and sponsor terror…he still does, so why would he stop?
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I agree with Horten’s post on the Israel-Palestinian issue (like the wall and Arafat), though I’m in favor of an independent Palestinian state. But lets just not let Jerusalem be their capital (though there have been talks between splitting it in half between Jew and Muslim).
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“I’m in favor of an independent Palestinian state. But lets just not let Jerusalem be their capital (though there have been talks between splitting it in half between Jew and Muslim).”
If it were split, one third of it would be muslim, but they want sole propiertership of the Temple Mount, even though it is the formost holy area to Jews.
Jersualem should be an open city, but if not, the “holy areas” should have no clear ownership.
Isn;t Ramallah the most important “Palestinian” city? That should be their capital.
Also about the “settlements.” If a peace is made, they should become citizens of the Palestinian state, but they should be protected by palestinian, but if not, Israel has the right to station troops inside these settlements…
but here’s the problem. What if the palestinians launch their artillary and rockets at these settlements…israel would no longer have the right to “police” the area, and they could only sit bacvk and watch jews die.
Any ideas on how to answer this?
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these posts are very interesting, in this conflict there is no virtous side, both sides have horrible attrocities to mark their pasts and when you analyze this issue it is impossible to say “But they are innocent…” because both sides have made horrible mistakes and commited horribble attrocoities against each other. The problem is the solution of this conflict, which is not going to happen anytime soon. Israel wont share Jerusalem, Israel wont dismantle the territories, and on the flip side the Palestinian people commit acts of terrorism. Through my study oft his subject I have come to sympathize with the Palestinian people in general (I live in the US, so I get alot of crap for my views), but acts of violence by a overzeoulous government are not any more justifiable than terrorism. Suicide bombers are not acceptable, and that must stop, but for this to come to peace there must a Palestinian state, there is no way around that. im kinda rambling now so im done
ps- the offer that arafat rejected should have been rejected, there is no way any kind of responsible leader (and arafat might not qualify) could accept that offer. it was about 80% there. He has even said that it was the best offer to date, but just not quite there.
peace in the middle east
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Well I think we all know that neither side is truly innocent here. The tricky part is finding what side is more at fault, and that requires many, many varying viewpoints. Give it time; I’m sure they’ll dig up some better leaders than Sharon and Arafat (hopefully). Then we can settle this thang once and for all. :wink:
“peace in the middle east”
“Rain in Spain!” 8)
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