Let’s run down your statement FinsterniS,
“First of all i must say that with this kind of speech; you are the “monster”.”
Hmmm… how am I the monster all of the sudden? Have I ever murdered someone? Am I murderer because I believe in justice and common decency?
“Second; even if it kill the good person, its always a barbarian act endorse by the governement.”
Yes, of course if you give the death penalty to a good, uprighteous person it is a barbarian act. I think everybody would agree you don’t murder an innocent person, which murders have done in the past. Remember what Timothy McVeigh, the terrorists who bombed the World Trade Centers, and Adolf Hitler did to innocent people? Aren’t their acts barbarian and should be punished by the fullest extend of the law? Are you saying these people shouldn’t deserve the Death Penalty?
“Not that life mean less. He make an horror by killing, but the governement has no right to endorse the same kind of horror. Killer are not monster, im sure many of them are suffering peaple. Evolve country does’nt endorse killing of human being. This is my last message here, i dont want to read again such stupidity. This is pure lack of vision & logic.”
Killer are not monster? Okay, provided this killer is not a monster than how does calling me a “monster” make me worse if I have never taken a person’s life? It must be my stupidity, which you have attacked that has made me more of a “monster” than of committing evil sins. Yeah, I’m sure many convicted killers are suffering too now that they’ve been caught.
“And again… poor peaple get capital punishment far more often.”
Would it be because the poor are the ones who are more likely to and actually commit the majority of these crimes?
PS: FinsterniS, it is pretty sad that you have to lower yourself in attacks against my intelligence. Have I ever once called your statements “stupid” or affronted your integrity like statements as “pure lack of vision & logic?” I am only wondering if you are using such insults in order to cover the shaky stance of your argument. Ad Hominem if that is the case
“Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.” - Aldolf Galland
“The crate? The crate matters not. It is the man who pilots the create that truely counts.”
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 19:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 19:31 ]
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 19:38 ]
sorry i don’t have the stats (or energy) to back up my claims, however as Mr. Ghoul can attest there have been a couple of people (David Milgard, Thomas Sophanow) in Winnipeg alone that have served time for murder despite innocence (these would be capital offences in Texas).
Although I disagree with FinsterniS’ albeit emotional rhetoric, i do agree that we are inflicting laws created by men designed to take a life. Do we really have that right? Because we voted for it, or a bunch of men in nice suits in some city decided that justice would be served this way? There surely must be a more civilized approach than a simple “eye for an eye”.
(mind you, i also think that child molesters should be thrown into the general prison population, so i am certainly no moral authority on this, but rather we really need to question the authorities who make this a law).
Also, i know this is a simplistic argument, but i could not perform the injection, pull the lever, what-have-you.
I also disagree with FinsterniS’ assertion that you, Moses, are a monster. You provide an interesting case, but one that relies too much on the emotions of vengence for justice, sympathy for the victims, and justification for death row. We need a little more than 10 years in a hole and a burning desire to see vengence done before we put ourselves in the position of an almighty God in our decision to take a life. (i’m sure that was what FinsterniS was trying to say, no? - joke)
David Milgard, Thomas Sophanow. Okay I’ll try researching these two “innocents” and report what I have found ( hopefully within the next week or so – currently I’m busy too :wink: ). I will try to provide an objective standpoint and see what the results were.
No doubt capital punishment is a very emotional subject. It involves the greatest tragedy of all – death. War, the bringer of death, is the greatest bearer of raw emotion – both good and bad.
Now, I’m in support capital punishment, but only in the most dire of situations. Should we execute someone who accidentally killed someone due to negligence, like falling asleep while driving only to end up running over pedestrian? Should we execute someone who killed another person in self-defense, such as home invasion robbery? Absolutely not. That is why our US Court system has a system of manslaughter and self-defense, which do not lead to the death penalty. (Though the length of time is still debated)
I’m sure that many of these people feel genuine sorrow for their actions. But how about those charges that do result in capital punishment – 1st and 2nd degree murder? These are cases where the person killed the other person with malice aforethought, and the killing was premeditated. Now even then you do not see the majority of the sentences leading to the death penalty. However, what about the Hitlers, Terrorists on WTC, Timothy McVeighs where not only was the murder premeditated and malice, but resulting in the mass killings of the lives of many others? Worst, these barbarians never expressed sympathy for the lives they took – Hitler to the Russians, Timothy to those in the Oklahoma City bombing, or Osoma to New York. Should these not require the death penalty but life imprisonment where they can “still laugh, learn and love, listen to music and read, form friendships, and do the thousand and one things (mundane and sublime) forever foreclosed to his victims?” That is the question for you to decide.
“Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.” - Aldolf Galland
“The crate? The crate matters not. It is the man who pilots the create that truely counts.”
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 20:25 ]
That is the question for you to decide. - Moses
me or God. I won’t decide it. (even if i did it wouldn’t make any difference).
my dad sometimes comments that The Lord will decide at the end of it all how these evil people you mentioned will be dealt with. “Vengence is mine saith the Lord. I will repay”. (of course you athiests do not need to respond as you obviously don’t buy in to this “fairy tale ending” :smile:
FinsterniS, I hope what Crypt said was correct and that your statements were solely based on emotional rhetoric that you failed to contain. I’ve noticed that I am not the only person you branded with Ad Hominem - I for my supposed “stupidity” (along with lack of logic or vision) and Crypt for his “arrogance.” If you want to attack me, then do so through your arguments. Oh course I am willing to forgive. You are still a relative new poster, and I might have made such attacks in the past. If I have, then I am honestly sorry and offer my condolences. If I am accurately ignorant, than it damages not only me but also you. Now you have to lower yourself into the embarrassment of debating an brainless fool like me.
Now, let’s take Crypt and Mr. Ghoul for instance (don’t mind if I use you guys). Generally we would agree and disagree on some issues, but that in no ways means that I lose respect for them simply because they sided with the other half of an argument. I understand that they have valid points too or that one of us is mis/un informed (life is not always black and white, but more often gray). I realize that everybody is different in their unique way and rightly so. I’m sure there were debates where I have switched sides due to the other half having a better argument (I use to be con capital punishment myself).
Now if such personal attacks continue, I will be forced to leave. I simply cannot stand such derogatory remarks made on a particular poster.
“Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.” - Aldolf Galland
“The crate? The crate matters not. It is the man who pilots the create that truely counts.”
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 20:48 ]
Crypt,
I hope that you are right. I hope that everybody does get what they deserve, be it good or bad. I hope life is a fairy tale ending. However, life is unfair. I’m sure that almost everybody at one point felt life was unfair (after all, the majority of people live in poverty). In a perfect world there would be no crime or punishment. Obviously this is not a perfect world nor do we have any factual evidence of knowing that the “Next World” will be or that it even exist.
I hate the use revenge, but will the families of those killed by such mass murderers listed before be content with, “Don’t worry, he’ll get his in the next world.” I don’t know. If God judges, then why should we even have prison sentences or a working legal system anyways? What if it was your own son or daughter that was killed?
“Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.” - Aldolf Galland
“The crate? The crate matters not. It is the man who pilots the create that truely counts.”
[ This Message was edited by: TG Moses VI on 2002-05-21 21:05 ]
sob…
I really hope this will be my last post here.
quote; Would it be because the poor are the ones who are more likely to and actually commit the majority of these crimes?
True, they commit more crime. But a collectivity must be loyal to all its member and any psychologist know that killer are often peaple that suffer inside (or outside in the case of poor peaple). Killing peaple that suffer is not quite logic. By killing them you are showing a exemple of revenge. By helping them you are showing an exemple of loyaulty. We are all a collective, we all have a place in this society, maybe if we learn how to be in society theyir will be not as much crime. Thats why i sent back the word Monsters to you, your monster is a problem that we should try to solve, my monster is the one that does’nt want to solve the problem.
Heres a big distinction; i did’nt say you were a monster, i sent back to you the word.
it is lack of vision also because you reduce an entire individual to a simple act.
And yes, i someone had kill someone a love, i’ll want it dead. That is emotional, not rational, and that emotional reaction is typical of our human short vision.
Anyway i dont think there’s much discussion. Every evolve society (dont read Economy) put aside capital punishment.
quote: Every evolve society (dont read Economy) put aside capital punishment. - F
The use of “evolve(d?)”, like “progressive” and “civilized” is really just a value judgement that you make. You or i saying that an “evolved society does not use capital punishment” makes some assumptions:
I know exactly the limitation of my speech. Im seeing the world within a specific culture, so im not objective (can we be objective?).
I perfectly know that when im saying evolve society im making a jugement hard to defend.
But can i say the US are as evolve as Sweden, no i cannot. Serious evidence tend to be on my side… yea yea, empirism cannot make the jump from evidence to proof, but well… get some information on Sweden, Norway, Austria, Danemak. These are the occidental evolve society of our time.
For the extra D, im sorry… im really butchering your native tongle :smile:.
I juge what is evolve by my critter, your critic is 100% correct. My remark own no real scientific or anthropologic value. Its just my jugement.
Note that i did’nt said explicitly that civilized soceity are civilisez because they dont use capital punishment, i only said civilized soceity dont use capital punishment. Still, i think it is a good critter of civilization.
“Gott ist Tot”
“Chacun prend les limites de son propre champ de vision pour celle de l’univers”
[ This Message was edited by: FinsterniS on 2002-05-21 22:17 ]
FinsterniS - made you post :smile:
and i think you’re english is excellent. once i realized that you’re ESL, i modified my assumptions considerably.
although i agree with you about capital punishment, i could not suggest that the U.S. is as a society not-evolved b/c of their choice (well, 'cept maybe Texas). I think Canada would still be considered evolved, even if Alberta decided that capital punishment was appropriate. Also given the age of the U.S. it is quite evolved, finally looking beyond themselves (to a small degree). True they elect people like G. Bush, but everyone makes mistakes. Look at the popularity of extremists in “evolved” Europe today - Austria, Holland (well, not anymore), France, Germany. Only the minority buys into the rhetoric, but the fact is they do have some power and to all appearances these countries are evolved (but just one wing-nut in the mix . . .).
Anyway, you get my point, and i have yours. I’ll stop baiting you now :smile: and maybe we’ll see this topic in a new topic post.
About extremist you forgot Italy… Anyway extremist are everywhere. From an european point of view Republican are extremist.
“Gott ist Tot”
“Chacun prend les limites de son propre champ de vision pour celle de l’univers”
[ This Message was edited by: FinsterniS on 2002-05-22 12:20 ]
Moses you are so arrogant. Shame on you crypt, he damned you for your BS and then you took his BS and liked it. “You are a new poster, and I am willing to forgive you”
Yuck.
Moses, you have no statistics either to back up your argument. You say, the “experts” agree that no one has been executed wrongly. Where did that come from? Any sources? Hypocrite.
Moses, do we have an excellent legal system? Hell No! Are human beings in general fair and just? Of course not. I turn on NPR and another wrongly convicted crimminal(s) has(have)been exhonerated. You can’t pardon a corpse. Without even moving past common sense, your argument is falling to pieces. All convicted murders are guilty my ass.
Also, not every murder is a timothy mcveigh. What about the retarded guy who stabs someone in a confused rage. Should he executed or hospitalized? In America, he is executed.
Moses, you are a racist. So is the death penalty. Not only are blacks more often executed, but they are more likely to get the death penalty. Murderers who kill whites are several times more likely to get the death penalty than murderers who kill non whites. By saying that the justice system very rarely misconvicts, you are saying that nonwhites are much more vicous, murderous, and less repentant. Or maybe Juries and prosecutors and Judges (predominantly white) are racist. Whooda thunk? Not a moron like you Moses.
IN illionois the govenor put a moratorium on executions because almost half the inmates on death row were exhonerated within a short period. And for those who are exhonerated, there are those who slip through the cracks.
Prison life is hell. Not flowers and music. Do you have any idea what goes on in a prison, fool.
Appeals cost millions and clog up the judicial system. They cost enough to imprison the convicted for more than a hundred years.
The truth is, Moses, you want blood. Fair legal system? Why did you pull that out of your ass. Shut up if you can’t stop lying through your rotten teeth, dumbass.
You probably support killing babies too huh? Have you seen an abortion? An execution? Same thing, except the Abortions more gruesome, and the victim is more innocent, too.
quote: Shame on you crypt, he damned you for your BS and then you took his BS and liked it. - yourbuttocks
this hurts. almost. 'cept i’m not really sure what you are talking about. are you pi**ed at me 'cuz i appreciate an intelligent point brought up by an adversary? Or do you think i’m wrong? About what? Who’s BS? And which of mine was BS?
I agree with your post, except for the personal attacks against Moses. And me.
To paraphrase:
Moses admonished Crypt (and all those who were against the death penalty) for not using enough facts.
Then, with no facts Moses stated that the Death Penalty was effective, moral, and just.
Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses.
Sorry about the comment about liking Moses’s B.S. (though it is B.S.) but the discussion I just described was so inane I couldn’t stand it.
As for Moses, anyone who believes that the slaughter of poor minorities is just is a sicko.
If poor are commit more crime, why not trying to help them ? Why do you think there’s FAR more less violence in country like Sweden ?
quote: Then Crypt agreed whole hartedly with Moses. -y/b
Didn’t happen. Not once. Moses and i are ideologically opposed on this one, and you and i are in the same camp. Maybe i don’t take the issue as seriously as you. I can’t remember the last time we had a good 'ole execution up here. It’s a dead issue in Canada (i hope).
It seems strange how a uncivilized, lesser-evolved country like USA is among the World’s Superpowers in terms of both GNP, military, industrialization, lasting ideology, and per capita income. However even these factors do not always determine evolutionary level. It depends on what you believe evolution is.
Is evolution humane and good, or should it be? Certainly animals have evolved over time, but that does not make them more humane and “good.” Usually it just means they are more capable of surviving and/or more efficient killers.
FinsterniS,
“Would it be because the poor are the ones who are more likely to and actually commit the majority of these crimes?”
Again this is what is wrong with America, and in a larger sense, capitalism. We are more worried about getting what is ours than caring for others. After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it. That is why there isn’t much of a “collectiveness” in America. Collectiveness centers more toward socialism and communism. You don’t live in a communists system expecting to use the phrase “I own this” very a lot, nor should you expect “lets help each other regardless” in a capitalistic society. Now as this moment and as long as America remains capitalist, there’s simply no changing the fact that the poor classes will indeed commit the majority of such crimes and should be punished accordingly.
Now, “psychologist know that killer are often people that suffer inside.”
True, there have been reported murders of people who are mentally unstable. However, in America you can plead for the “insanity defense,” which if proven will not result in capital punishment, but more likely psychiatric care. The true question, do murders use the “insanity defense” only to cover themselves and escape a 1st degree verdict? That is for the jury to decide based on cross-examinations, evidence, experts, and facts.
cystic crypt
“Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, David Millgard and Thomas Sophonow were each Canadians…”
Crypt, didn’t know these people were Canadian. For that reason, I cannot try this case. Now I’m debating capital punishment under the American justice system. Can you please provide me the names of any wrongly convicted there? Reason being is that I do not have enough experience with the Canadian legal system to properly analyze it. For all I know there is [Canadian law] no such thing as self-defense or manslaughter, but only 1st-degree murder on all cases.
After all, capitalism uses economic Darwinism. Survival of the fittest, natural selection, everyone for himself, or whatever you may call it.
False
False
False
Thats a quite American conception of Capitalist. Well, no, the fittest does’nt survive in Capitalist, nor the peaple with high intelligence or anything. Capitalist encourage everything that is bestial, and while we ARE bestial, with such powerful weapon as nuclear bomb we cannot afford to be too much emotional. Humanity is in a stage where it need to restructure his vision of the world so it can survive.
And individuals, fighters in your so call fight for evolution, are killing the planet with pollution.
I can also say that this vision cost USA a lot, your scientist are’nt working together. You are making “lot” of discoveries without being able to articulate them to a bigger system.
And if you are right, why not be anarchist. No rules, only the “fittest” will survive.
