I went when I was really young. I think I mainly visited resorts and amusement parks.
Halocaust in Jenin
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On 2002-04-13 21:37, waraxis wrote:
What do you mean it doesn’t matter who started it? Are you telling me that Poland was just as guilty as Germany for starting World War 2. Please explain more on your point of view. Just want to know.i must agree with war axis on this one.
Yanny, you’re a smart guy…did you watch the movie Patton, and there is the political cartoon of him kicking a soldier with a swatstika on his boot? why would a country take itself down? more importantly, israel can’t allow people to videotape troop movements…that is just not smart…remember 'nam? and people are made homeless…yet in those homes are facilities to make chemicals for bombs.
so complain all you want about israel trying to put as little media attention in an area in the middle of combat. israel is showing the PA what happens when they don’t make peace.
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As I said in my last post, this bloodshed did not start as a result of the creation of Israel as most people think. Just the latest war lasting the last 50 years or so. Both groups settled the area about the same time 3 or 4 thousand years ago. That’s the root of the conflict. They both feel it’s theirs alone. But they both have claim to it. You can’t draw boundaries on mutual property. You can quote all day long on who killed who when and where. Depending on when and where you fit into the history will decide what side you’ll take and rightly so. If a friend or family member of yours is killed by one side you got a reason. Unfortunately there are several agendas working on both sides that want different things. Obviously the more radical groups (again on both sides) want death. Others are tired and want peace. Then you have hundreds of others in between these 2 extremes with a variety of different wants. You can’t get them all to agree, look at the past 50 years, it’s impossible. Alot of OLD hate there.
Guys I’m not saying any post here is right or wrong. Obviously, people who kill using terrorist methods need to be brought to justice. The same goes to soldiers of any army abusing their power. Or nations and political groups doing things such as these. But who brings them to justice? They can’t do it on their own without bias. The US justified attacking Afghanistan to bring the muderers of 9/11 to justice (I as most Americans agreed with this action). Does any world power have the right to walk in and fix this? I’d say no - since it probably would have been done already if the world thought this was correct action.
So where are we left? Daily killing, both sides. If you lose you brother, do you care why? You want answers quick. You want who did it dead. Do you care that the PLO want land back? Do you care about Israel’s security? No. It can happen to us all. I went to Jerusalem in 1990. I could have been killed. People WERE killed in the city 2 days later. It’s a real mess over there, I find it hard to think what it’s like now 12 years have gone by.
There is NO solution to this problem. It has taken it’s own life and it is beyond any control. The real victims are ALL the people over there trying to LIVE their lives. Going to work or school knowing death could be around the corner. I met them 12 years ago, Israeli’s and Palestinian’s. They want what everyone wants - the right to live as they want. Raise their kids, go to school or work, go have FUN. Without all this bloodshed. Unfortunately their cries go unanswered. Alot sucked into one side or the other for reasons justified as we’ve said.
Others just die.
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I just had it with liberals that are “international civilians” who in fact help treat terrorist or people who help them.
do you know the israeli ambulences aren’t considered official medics from the red cross…and the red cross feeds yasser. what a load.
" Both groups settled the area about the same time 3 or 4 thousand years ago. That’s the root of the conflict. They both feel it’s theirs alone. But they both have claim to it. You can’t draw boundaries on mutual property. You can quote all day long on who killed who when and where. Depending on when and where you fit into the history will decide what side you’ll take and rightly so. If a friend or family member of yours is killed by one side you got a reason. "
3300 years ago, the jews were forced out of egypt and they conquered the caananites and made a state. caananites aren’t “palestinians”, they were 1800 years away from being muslim, and most importantly they really don’t exist as a people. the “palestinian” identity, is fairly new, as in 30 years old new. “Palestinians” are in fact lebanese, syrian, jordanian, or other arabs who emigrated (or is it “immigrated”?) to israel about 100 hundred years ago, when zionism was starting, and the once barren rock of an area was attracting jobs. in fact, the “israeli palestinians”, who are legal israeli citizens, who vote, and get educated, have the highest standard of living for Muslims in the middle east!
what am i talking about now? oh yeah, stay out of my booze.
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Just wondering if your “liberal citizen” comment was directed towards me. I was in Jerusalem as an American Naval serviceman on tour in the Med at that time. Trust me, myself and my shipmates were bigger targets than your normal American. We had to sign waivers to enter the country and were forced to have legal wills drawn up before we departed the US. The Navy made no mistakes warning us of possible danger. I’ll never trade that experience for anything.
You can label the Arab peoples any way you like. Whether you call them Palestinians, Canaanites, Jordians, Syrians, etc. They all have rights to the land. Your correct, Arab citizens living in Jewish towns have a better standard of living, it’s to be expected. It be great if they could all live under one rule. But they can’t. It would definitely solve all problems if both sides could have involvement in a mutual government. That’s impossible considering all that’s happened.
I’m not trying to argue with you. Your opinions are solid and your history correct. But let’s face it - peace has no place there until one side is eliminated. Too many deaths and lives destroyed going back entire generations. Peace talks don’t cure this. The US or anyone else can’t make it “right”. That’s all I’m trying to point out. I’m not trying to belittle any deaths that occur there. They’re all wrong for whatever reason. I saw the land when I was there, it’s not all worthless desert. I’d fight for it too.
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no not you, i was complaing about the people volunteering as bullet sheilds for yasser, and liberals (europeans and american liberals in particular) going in the “west bank” helping the palestinians, and when something happens, they were innocent.
i see your point, but i would like to think there was an alternative to killing everyone on one side. the fact is that who perpetuates the violence? people should stop justfying the palestinian’s bloody deeds.
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Yes there are alternatives to all types of situations. But how can this conflict end when the Palestinians keep attacking Israel. You know that Israel offered most of what they wanted and the Palestinians turned it down. Most sources I have seen or heard said it was over 90 percent of the Palestinians wanted and they said no deal. Arafat does not want peace it seems. I think he wants to be known as the guy who destoryed Israel!!!
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The radicals on both sides keep the violence going. Moderates in both camps would eventually win if more people wouldn’t turn to the extreme after violent acts. That’s holding it all up. The violence perpetuates itself in this manner.
In reference to Arafat, he made himself look real bad not taking that last proposal. The Israeli’s were giving in to alot. It gives alot of belief he is with the radicals. Personally I don’t know, but I never trusted him.
I think the best chance is long term. It may take another 50 years, but eventually they will all get sick of the killing. Keep in mind - that’s alot of dead until then. Eventually enough will be enough. Arafat won’t live forever. Will someone take his place? Who knows. I won’t speculate what various long term solutions may be. Leave that for the experts. It is clear - in the future, they’re going to have to “All get along”…
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Sorry, been a bad few days. Let me just say something.
I know damn well how suicide bombers are created. Their created by violence, by 10 year olds seeing soldiers kill their parents.
My friend left the West Bank at age 2. His family was kicked out of their homes in the West Bank 17 years ago. The entire street was bulldozed. No compensation was ever payed to him. They had 18 hours to leave before it was destroyed.
Israel does not have a free media. You cannot trust their reports. If Journalists could get pictures of both sides dieing, popular opinion would by no means be on Israel’s side.
People believe what they see on the media. Journalists can go along on missions with Israeli soldiers, but must submit their footage and let it be edited. Its called Propaganda, in the extreme form.
Ariel Sharon has a reputation for “Too much unneccasary collateral damage”. More than half his people disapprove his actions.
The Church Members inside the Church of Nativity are not being held hostage. They proclaim themselves (through some of the evacuated members talking to the US Media) that they stay there by choice.
The United States Media is doing the best they can, but due to preconceptions about the Palestinians (from Israeli propaganda) they cannot be truley objective. I no longer watch MSNBC, instead I watch CNNWorld (Mostly a British channel), for my news.
I am agnostic, so I see this conflict not as a Religious conflict, but as the result of a Tyrant ruling over a smaller nation.
Let me give you some historical facts.
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The Israelites were the first to use Terrorism. They tried to rebel against the Romans by burning down Roman towns and taking Roman Generals hostage. The Israelis teach this in their schools as “Freedom fighting”
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The American Revolution is considered Terrorism by the British. They fought a Guerilla war and won. They terrorised all British Tax officals by Linching, Tar and Feathering, or destroying their homes.
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When Israel was founded, 20 percent of the Country was Hebrew (note I don’t say Jewish), and 80 percent was Arab.
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After the 1967 war, over 2 million displaced Arabs left Israel for other Arab countries (mostly Jordon) and lived their lives in “Refugee camps”. Israel became 50 percent Hebrew, 50 percent Arab.
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By today, Arabs have left Israel enough to change the Ratio to 70/30. If the “Right of Return” were to be granted, and almost 3 million Arabs were to return, the Ratio would return to 50/50.
Lastly, like I said, don’t believe the Israeli media. Use a European or Japaneese or Candadian News source.
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I am Pro-Israel, but you do bring up good points. The press has to be given a free reign over everything. Medical supplies must be allowed to the Palestinians. And Ariel Sharon must give all information about the military operations to the press for scrutiny. But are the Jews supposed to roll over and be killed. The Palestinians must stop their attacks. At least on non-military targets!! There must be a way for the 2 sides to live in peace. Excuse my spelling. Blast away.
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I can definitely agree with what Yanny said. I really feel sorry for the Palestinians since they have nowhere to go and nowhere to call home. The point about the American Revolution only saddened the mood.
But what waraxis said is true. Americans never purposely tried to kill innocent British or their Tories. Or at least I hope not. Palestinian militants should stop attacking Israel teenagers and civilians. It’s just not fair.
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"I am agnostic, so I see this conflict not as a Religious conflict, but as the result of a Tyrant ruling over a smaller nation.
Let me give you some historical facts.
-
The Israelites were the first to use Terrorism. They tried to rebel against the Romans by burning down Roman towns and taking Roman Generals hostage. The Israelis teach this in their schools as “Freedom fighting”
-
The American Revolution is considered Terrorism by the British. They fought a Guerilla war and won. They terrorised all British Tax officals by Linching, Tar and Feathering, or destroying their homes.
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When Israel was founded, 20 percent of the Country was Hebrew (note I don’t say Jewish), and 80 percent was Arab.
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After the 1967 war, over 2 million displaced Arabs left Israel for other Arab countries (mostly Jordon) and lived their lives in “Refugee camps”. Israel became 50 percent Hebrew, 50 percent Arab.
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By today, Arabs have left Israel enough to change the Ratio to 70/30. If the “Right of Return” were to be granted, and almost 3 million Arabs were to return, the Ratio would return to 50/50.
Lastly, like I said, don’t believe the Israeli media. Use a European or Japaneese or Candadian News source. "
"I am agnostic, so I see this conflict not as a Religious conflict, but as the result of a Tyrant ruling over a smaller nation. "
Same here, but Israel is a “smaller nation” that can be destroyed by the larger ones around it."- The Israelites were the first to use Terrorism. They tried to rebel against the Romans by burning down Roman towns and taking Roman Generals hostage. The Israelis teach this in their schools as “Freedom fighting” "
You bet you butt! I think the movie “life of brian” shows it best. Jesus and the “People’s ront of Judea” try to take down the romans, though they brought them roads, education, an aquaduct, and much more. Their state was conquered though, by the roman empire, and the state o israel belonged to someone else for the next 2,000 years. Judea was a jewish state though.
"- The American Revolution is considered Terrorism by the British. They fought a Guerilla war and won. They terrorised all British Tax officals by Linching, Tar and Feathering, or destroying their homes. "
It was…and it was uncalled for. We had the lowest taxes on earth, and free military protection. The American revolution was uncalled for.
class is starting, i’ll be back later.
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The Colonists wanted a say in Parliament on taxation in the American Colonies. This means private enterprize had to dip into their retirements to pay for new taxes. Of course it’s easier to raise prices. This displeases everyone - blame the Crown. It didn’t take long for the professionals and business leaders to figure out Americans could keep all the money for themselves. Why give it all to Britian? Ah, the birth of liberty. North America is vast and would tie down a pressed English military. We could lose most of the battles and win the war, given the proper time. Look what happened! They were no fools. It took this country time to get it together, but it really paid off…
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The delagates (Benjamin Franklin) sent to Parliment in 1774 were specfically told to refuse all offers of a vote(s) in the British Government.
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yes, and america was offered home rule, but thed people in power denied. They didn’t want liberty, or representation…they wanted power.
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“- When Israel was founded, 20 percent of the Country was Hebrew (note I don’t say Jewish), and 80 percent was Arab.”
Just before some major immigration from europe, and before many arabs volunteerily left without ever seeing an israeli rifle (60%) let alone being forced to leave.
“- After the 1967 war, over 2 million displaced Arabs left Israel for other Arab countries (mostly Jordon) and lived their lives in “Refugee camps”. Israel became 50 percent Hebrew, 50 percent Arab.”
In fact, 250,000 plaestinians left the west bank, not because of the israelis, but because of jordanian military action against israel. As many as 60,000 returned. Many left all over to avoid fire from both sides.
"- By today, Arabs have left Israel enough to change the Ratio to 70/30. If the “Right of Return” were to be granted, and almost 3 million Arabs were to return, the Ratio would return to 50/50. "
20% of israel’s citizens aren’t jewish, so i guess your population includes non citizens. The right of return in extremely exaggerated, because many of the people who left, weren’t even forced out…they left on their own accord, or pressure from armies that weren’t israeli. 800,000 jews used to live outside of israel, now the number is 25,000. Should they, and their millions of decedents have a right of return as well? Though of course some were forced out, some left for a better life elsewhere.
"Lastly, like I said, don’t believe the Israeli media. Use a European or Japaneese or Candadian News source. "
European news sources are way too leftist biased. I only went to a canadian news site once, and the same there. Never seen a japanese website, though i have seen many other asian ones. No news is balanced, but i suggest one uses http://www.israelinewsnow.com because it takes news stories from a wide array of websites, from arabnews.com to jpost.com.
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On 2002-04-13 18:26, Yanny wrote:
Over 30,000 homeless in the west bank
It comes down to economics. Why do all the suicide bombers come from the WEST BANK and not EAST JERUSALEM? Because the average salary in EAST JERUSALEM is 3 times larger than in the WEST BANK.
As FDR said,“people care more about bread than freedom” What do you think the French, RussianRevolutions, Hitler and Mussolini’s rise to power were all about. Bread. And it’s going on now in Palestine.
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They are pawns in the hands of the men in power of other middle eastern countries.
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Yanni said: I’m not placing the blame entirely on the Israelis, but wake up dammit. My friend was there as a f**king aid worker. He carried no gun. He was in no way a threat. He was shot.
u been watchin a bit too much american history x, friend. You’re not in a real life drama or nothin
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American History X is a tight movie.
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what was it about?
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