@Curtmungus your honor of being more famous than me is quite deserved. I salute you.
Halocaust in Jenin
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It could be happening. I wouldn’t put it above Israel (the bastards kill 15x more Palestinians than are killed by Suicide Bombers). No Media, Red Cross, Government Agents, Health Care, or enlisted man Military unit allowed in or out.
Sounds to me like the Second Halocaust.
Sharon could very well be seen as a Anti-Christ wannabe.
This sh*t has gone too far. The US needs to DO SOMETHING. Innocent people are dieing by the scores.
Bush, DO SOMETHING!
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Yanny do you hate jews???
Just wondering because you are really harsh on them. What would you do if people kept bombing your home. No offense but I’m really shocked at the point of view you have taken. Both sides have their bad points. But last time I checked all the ceasefires have been broken by the Arabs not the Jews. Excuse my spelling please.
I hope my first post here doesn’t get me kicked off. But I had to ask. -
Yanny, your statistic isn’t very reliable…and how much of those people die fighting the israelis, hiding weapons for terrorists, or hiding terrorists? Innocent people (by the most part) are not dying. people are openly fighting on the streets.
It is not a second holocaust. Don’t let the leftist propaganda brainwash you!
Please don’t take offense to what I am saying!
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They’ve been fighting a war since the creation of Israel after WWII. Do you really expect them to stop for ANY reason?
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only a lowly brute cannot control his emotions…
pride must be set aside for peace, otherwise they are “in the wrong.”
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You know why I am so pissed? A good friend of mine died last week in Jenin.
I am in no way anti Jew. Religion has nothing to do with this. Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany. You just don’t see it.
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good friend? good friend how?
“Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany.”
a huge exaggeration. How about the arab pograms against jews during the 1920s? How about the jews (800,000) forced to leave many parts of the middle east? how about the fact that the arabs fought WITH the nazis (well, some did, “the arabs” is too much of an generalization.)
now yanny, either israel has a right to a state or not. any other country would not tolerate what israel goes through every day.
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I’m sorry I flipped out. But to call someone an “Anti-Jew”! Your just the kind of person which make this conflict the way it is.
No one can see through that Israel’s media is not a free media. Over 500 dead in Jenin and rising, over 30,000 homeless in the west bank as a result of the last 2 weeks.
I’m not placing the blame entirely on the Israelis, but wake up dammit. My friend was there as a fucking aid worker. He carried no gun. He was in no way a threat. He was shot.
The only reason this isn’t all over the news is he wasn’t an American Citizen. He lived in America, was educated in America, he looked American, but was born in the West Bank. He went back to help his family leave and was killed. He brought food, medical supplies, and a video camera. I’m sure the Israelis saw the camera.
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I’m sorry. I didn’t mean it like that. I was just wondering about your take on the whole affair. But at the sametime have you talked to any Jews, who have lost loved ones to bombers?? The Arabs are targeting non-military targets!! After what happened to the Jews in the past, does anybody have the right to tell them how to defend themselves. Last time they tried the peace way 6 million died in the camps. My family lived in Germany during the Nazi era, my grandmother said that the Jews tried to talk peace and all that. They thought they could reason with the Nazis, when Hitler came to power in 1933. Look what happens when Jews don’t stand up for themselves!!!
They get slaughtered. If another 6 million die will then you say that you might be a little one-sided. I know this is a bad way to start off talking to you but i was just wondering. I didn’t know how bad you had been hurt in the past. I’m sorry about your friend! -
It’s easy to get emotional about this conflict. Bottom line though - one side won’t rest until the other is eliminated. You can talk peace all you want. It won’t cure 3 thousand years of hate. It really doesn’t matter who started what or who killed who. Both sides are in it for the win at ALL costs. This is the problem at hand. It has no solution…
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What do you mean it doesn’t matter who started it? Are you telling me that Poland was just as guilty as Germany for starting World War 2. Please explain more on your point of view. Just want to know.
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On 2002-04-13 21:37, waraxis wrote:
What do you mean it doesn’t matter who started it? Are you telling me that Poland was just as guilty as Germany for starting World War 2. Please explain more on your point of view. Just want to know.i must agree with war axis on this one.
Yanny, you’re a smart guy…did you watch the movie Patton, and there is the political cartoon of him kicking a soldier with a swatstika on his boot? why would a country take itself down? more importantly, israel can’t allow people to videotape troop movements…that is just not smart…remember 'nam? and people are made homeless…yet in those homes are facilities to make chemicals for bombs.
so complain all you want about israel trying to put as little media attention in an area in the middle of combat. israel is showing the PA what happens when they don’t make peace.
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As I said in my last post, this bloodshed did not start as a result of the creation of Israel as most people think. Just the latest war lasting the last 50 years or so. Both groups settled the area about the same time 3 or 4 thousand years ago. That’s the root of the conflict. They both feel it’s theirs alone. But they both have claim to it. You can’t draw boundaries on mutual property. You can quote all day long on who killed who when and where. Depending on when and where you fit into the history will decide what side you’ll take and rightly so. If a friend or family member of yours is killed by one side you got a reason. Unfortunately there are several agendas working on both sides that want different things. Obviously the more radical groups (again on both sides) want death. Others are tired and want peace. Then you have hundreds of others in between these 2 extremes with a variety of different wants. You can’t get them all to agree, look at the past 50 years, it’s impossible. Alot of OLD hate there.
Guys I’m not saying any post here is right or wrong. Obviously, people who kill using terrorist methods need to be brought to justice. The same goes to soldiers of any army abusing their power. Or nations and political groups doing things such as these. But who brings them to justice? They can’t do it on their own without bias. The US justified attacking Afghanistan to bring the muderers of 9/11 to justice (I as most Americans agreed with this action). Does any world power have the right to walk in and fix this? I’d say no - since it probably would have been done already if the world thought this was correct action.
So where are we left? Daily killing, both sides. If you lose you brother, do you care why? You want answers quick. You want who did it dead. Do you care that the PLO want land back? Do you care about Israel’s security? No. It can happen to us all. I went to Jerusalem in 1990. I could have been killed. People WERE killed in the city 2 days later. It’s a real mess over there, I find it hard to think what it’s like now 12 years have gone by.
There is NO solution to this problem. It has taken it’s own life and it is beyond any control. The real victims are ALL the people over there trying to LIVE their lives. Going to work or school knowing death could be around the corner. I met them 12 years ago, Israeli’s and Palestinian’s. They want what everyone wants - the right to live as they want. Raise their kids, go to school or work, go have FUN. Without all this bloodshed. Unfortunately their cries go unanswered. Alot sucked into one side or the other for reasons justified as we’ve said.
Others just die.
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I just had it with liberals that are “international civilians” who in fact help treat terrorist or people who help them.
do you know the israeli ambulences aren’t considered official medics from the red cross…and the red cross feeds yasser. what a load.
" Both groups settled the area about the same time 3 or 4 thousand years ago. That’s the root of the conflict. They both feel it’s theirs alone. But they both have claim to it. You can’t draw boundaries on mutual property. You can quote all day long on who killed who when and where. Depending on when and where you fit into the history will decide what side you’ll take and rightly so. If a friend or family member of yours is killed by one side you got a reason. "
3300 years ago, the jews were forced out of egypt and they conquered the caananites and made a state. caananites aren’t “palestinians”, they were 1800 years away from being muslim, and most importantly they really don’t exist as a people. the “palestinian” identity, is fairly new, as in 30 years old new. “Palestinians” are in fact lebanese, syrian, jordanian, or other arabs who emigrated (or is it “immigrated”?) to israel about 100 hundred years ago, when zionism was starting, and the once barren rock of an area was attracting jobs. in fact, the “israeli palestinians”, who are legal israeli citizens, who vote, and get educated, have the highest standard of living for Muslims in the middle east!
what am i talking about now? oh yeah, stay out of my booze.
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Just wondering if your “liberal citizen” comment was directed towards me. I was in Jerusalem as an American Naval serviceman on tour in the Med at that time. Trust me, myself and my shipmates were bigger targets than your normal American. We had to sign waivers to enter the country and were forced to have legal wills drawn up before we departed the US. The Navy made no mistakes warning us of possible danger. I’ll never trade that experience for anything.
You can label the Arab peoples any way you like. Whether you call them Palestinians, Canaanites, Jordians, Syrians, etc. They all have rights to the land. Your correct, Arab citizens living in Jewish towns have a better standard of living, it’s to be expected. It be great if they could all live under one rule. But they can’t. It would definitely solve all problems if both sides could have involvement in a mutual government. That’s impossible considering all that’s happened.
I’m not trying to argue with you. Your opinions are solid and your history correct. But let’s face it - peace has no place there until one side is eliminated. Too many deaths and lives destroyed going back entire generations. Peace talks don’t cure this. The US or anyone else can’t make it “right”. That’s all I’m trying to point out. I’m not trying to belittle any deaths that occur there. They’re all wrong for whatever reason. I saw the land when I was there, it’s not all worthless desert. I’d fight for it too.
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no not you, i was complaing about the people volunteering as bullet sheilds for yasser, and liberals (europeans and american liberals in particular) going in the “west bank” helping the palestinians, and when something happens, they were innocent.
i see your point, but i would like to think there was an alternative to killing everyone on one side. the fact is that who perpetuates the violence? people should stop justfying the palestinian’s bloody deeds.
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Yes there are alternatives to all types of situations. But how can this conflict end when the Palestinians keep attacking Israel. You know that Israel offered most of what they wanted and the Palestinians turned it down. Most sources I have seen or heard said it was over 90 percent of the Palestinians wanted and they said no deal. Arafat does not want peace it seems. I think he wants to be known as the guy who destoryed Israel!!!
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The radicals on both sides keep the violence going. Moderates in both camps would eventually win if more people wouldn’t turn to the extreme after violent acts. That’s holding it all up. The violence perpetuates itself in this manner.
In reference to Arafat, he made himself look real bad not taking that last proposal. The Israeli’s were giving in to alot. It gives alot of belief he is with the radicals. Personally I don’t know, but I never trusted him.
I think the best chance is long term. It may take another 50 years, but eventually they will all get sick of the killing. Keep in mind - that’s alot of dead until then. Eventually enough will be enough. Arafat won’t live forever. Will someone take his place? Who knows. I won’t speculate what various long term solutions may be. Leave that for the experts. It is clear - in the future, they’re going to have to “All get along”…
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Sorry, been a bad few days. Let me just say something.
I know damn well how suicide bombers are created. Their created by violence, by 10 year olds seeing soldiers kill their parents.
My friend left the West Bank at age 2. His family was kicked out of their homes in the West Bank 17 years ago. The entire street was bulldozed. No compensation was ever payed to him. They had 18 hours to leave before it was destroyed.
Israel does not have a free media. You cannot trust their reports. If Journalists could get pictures of both sides dieing, popular opinion would by no means be on Israel’s side.
People believe what they see on the media. Journalists can go along on missions with Israeli soldiers, but must submit their footage and let it be edited. Its called Propaganda, in the extreme form.
Ariel Sharon has a reputation for “Too much unneccasary collateral damage”. More than half his people disapprove his actions.
The Church Members inside the Church of Nativity are not being held hostage. They proclaim themselves (through some of the evacuated members talking to the US Media) that they stay there by choice.
The United States Media is doing the best they can, but due to preconceptions about the Palestinians (from Israeli propaganda) they cannot be truley objective. I no longer watch MSNBC, instead I watch CNNWorld (Mostly a British channel), for my news.
I am agnostic, so I see this conflict not as a Religious conflict, but as the result of a Tyrant ruling over a smaller nation.
Let me give you some historical facts.
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The Israelites were the first to use Terrorism. They tried to rebel against the Romans by burning down Roman towns and taking Roman Generals hostage. The Israelis teach this in their schools as “Freedom fighting”
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The American Revolution is considered Terrorism by the British. They fought a Guerilla war and won. They terrorised all British Tax officals by Linching, Tar and Feathering, or destroying their homes.
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When Israel was founded, 20 percent of the Country was Hebrew (note I don’t say Jewish), and 80 percent was Arab.
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After the 1967 war, over 2 million displaced Arabs left Israel for other Arab countries (mostly Jordon) and lived their lives in “Refugee camps”. Israel became 50 percent Hebrew, 50 percent Arab.
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By today, Arabs have left Israel enough to change the Ratio to 70/30. If the “Right of Return” were to be granted, and almost 3 million Arabs were to return, the Ratio would return to 50/50.
Lastly, like I said, don’t believe the Israeli media. Use a European or Japaneese or Candadian News source.
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I am Pro-Israel, but you do bring up good points. The press has to be given a free reign over everything. Medical supplies must be allowed to the Palestinians. And Ariel Sharon must give all information about the military operations to the press for scrutiny. But are the Jews supposed to roll over and be killed. The Palestinians must stop their attacks. At least on non-military targets!! There must be a way for the 2 sides to live in peace. Excuse my spelling. Blast away.
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