Since this is interesting…

[Mr Ghoul]

I think the US have the biggest muscles on the block so ,of course, their going to flex them. Being Canadian and watching and listening to our ridiculous government fumble itsway around world affairs, Im totally behind almost anything the States does. Our Canadian Prime Minister is a f#@%@*$ joker.A Stupid looking bastard. The US has direction, there decisive. They are the New World Romans.

As for the Middle east, just let them kill each other, same goes for India and Pakistan.

I dont belive Yannys 14

[TG Moses VI]

Well done fellow comrade!
HortenFlyingWing, read number #2 in my post above. John Locke once said that man is nothing more than a clean slate who’s actions are predetermine by his environment. Remember, back many centuries ago, Feudalism was an accepted way of life. However such people as Enlightened Thinkers (Locke, Voltire (sp)) thought otherwise.

The Japanese economy thrived for several decades by strictly controlling competition (very socialistic). Would-be monopolists are always emerging as natural products of capitalism, threatening to do away with competition from capitalist, not socialist motives. If people have been able to raise their standards of living it has been partly because of the work of labor unions and those who have agitated for minimum wage and maximum work day laws, all denounced as harmful to free competition.

Also the idea of Norway having one of the highest standards of living supports communism. Norway is much of a well regulated, welfare state (I think taxes of over 50% on income), socialism. Don’t want pure communism? I don’t blame you. However Lenin’s NEP was able to successfully combine forms of capitalism with Communism. Rewards do not always have to come in the form of money. Simply put, money can’t buy you happiness.

[HortenFlyingWing]

I totally agree. but how can a clean slate be made “ungreedy”? It would be hard to do that, my friend, it would be hard to eliminate greed.

I think norway has 60% income tax, and to tell the truth, i think that is a little insane. Norway does not have to spend its money on a massive military, and the many other things larger countires have to spend money on. It would be hard to put that same system n a country like america, so i don’t delude myself to think it is possible.

I think man can get along fine with capitalism. If communism is ment to eliminate greed, then that is totally not true, because greed still exists… unless the state takes you when you are a baby and programs “ungreedy” babies…but thats not going to happen…yet…

[mini_phreek]

i think the best way to eliminate greed is for the leaders to be rotated on a ragular basis this is ware the “recaled at any time” part come in, as soon as there human instincs get the best of him/her the peaple elect some one new to fill his spot on the council.

[HortenFlyingWing]

On 2002-03-26 12:52, mini_phreek wrote:
i think the best way to eliminate greed is for the leaders to be rotated on a ragular basis this is ware the “recaled at any time” part come in, as soon as there human instincs get the best of him/her the peaple elect some one new to fill his spot on the council.

well, things aren’t that easy. for one, a lot of leaders are dictators and such for life. now i’m sure your party lines would not want the end of a regime like that, so there’s a loop in logic.

another thing is that someone doesn’t need to be in power more than one day to be corrupted. special interests run everything, in any sort of country. only if every rich and or powerful person was murdered, would you solve that problem…but you would only cause a lot more problems.

[mini_phreek]

thats why it’s importent to see that no one person be in charge instede we have an elected councel subject to recall at any time

[TG Moses VI]

“another thing is that someone doesn’t need to be in power more than one day to be corrupted. special interests run everything, in any sort of country”

Well by special interests you mean “money under then the table” then I think that it more of a capitalistic notion. Look at the US Government on the years when special interests have caused scandals and corruption (especially before the direct election of centers).

"I think, in order to have freedom, one must not be constrained by outside forces that seek to control one’s actions when they effect no one but oneself to a reasonable degree. Under a Communist government this true freedom, if the right conditions were maintained, would be more prevalent than in our current world. Right now government censorship in the US is not so much a problem as censorship by money. The facts is simple: Those with the bucks get to have there say.

First, In order to run for president a person needs funding for his campaign, and in recent times a large amount of this comes from the candidates own pockets. None of the current or recent major presidential candidates has been poor or middle class (although some have started that way).

Second, it takes money to publish papers, books, pamphlets, even websites. It takes money to publish ideas, and, obviously, those without are censored. Under Communism financial censorship could not take place since all are in the same economic class. People would be equally endowed with the means to express themselves. Also, there would be no wealthy lobbyist groups to perpetuate evils such as HMOs, tobacco, etc. Currently these groups are able to inflect harm on the general because of their riches."

[Guest]

I don’t think that we can call the US a successful attempt at democracy yet, it’s only been 200 years, which really isn’t long at all.

[TG Moses VI]

“Very true indeed. To eternity, 200 years is not a very long time. A lot of people I know say Communism is dead, that it died out with the cold war. Communism has failed once, and people say it fell because of humankind’s greedy nature. When the Democracy of Athens and the Roman Republic failed, people said they failed because of humankind’s stupid nature. Here we have another lesson to learn: Just because an idea failed once does not mean it always will. Also, maybe this time we will not wait 1,820 years to realize this.”

[HortenFlyingWing]

"Well by special interests you mean “money under then the table” then I think that it more of a capitalistic notion. Look at the US Government on the years when special interests have caused scandals and corruption (especially before the direct election of centers). "

I guess you mean “senators”… yess, there is always need for reform, but you can’t tell me that the people in power always truly look out for what is best for the people. a capitalist society allows people to work for their money, what they own…their power. A communist society with corrupt leadership (and in my opinion 99.9% of all leadership is corrupt) is even worse than a corrupt capitalist society. capitalism at least has social mobility, and it allows people that work to get the dividends they deserve.

people who work hard usually get the benefit of hard work, over time. Communism will not be a quick fix, and nor a long time fix. man’s greedy nature will never permit it. if it was successful anywhere, it will start going downhill after one generation. capitalism will always exist as long as there is ownership. as long as someone is better than anyone else in any sort of way, capitalism exists.

That’s why i feel the need to repeat myself. Communism is either endorsed by lazy, possibly down on their luck people, or idealists. both fail to see straight.

You would have to tell me greed can be exterminated…if you can’t tell me that, a pure communist society wouldn’t endure forever. At least in America, and even more so in Europe, capitalism exists but under restrictions set by the government. yes, people demanded change and reform, and yes for the good of the people corperations can’t run as wild as they did 100 years ago. But at times, people get greedy, like in france. a 35 hour work week? A society that doesn’t want to work will collapse.

---

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[ This Message was edited by: HortenFlyingWing on 2002-03-27 07:54 ]

[Guest]

Communism does not work. What kind of motivation does one have ,if no matter how hard you work, the next guy who does nothing gets the same reward. Where is the reinforcement? It stands against human nature. Greed inst the only factor.

[Mr Ghoul]

Ummm… i guest i missed my password…im dumb, the above post is mine.

[Guest]

Communism is an ideal system of government…
for a community of about 200. Too many people is a major factor in the flaws of every government. It simply isn’t possible to have a good system (passable yes, even better than average, but not good) with millions of individuals to cater to. With a small community it would be possible to insure that everyone either contributed to the whole or did not undeservedly (is that a word?) benefit from the labors of the others. With larger populations it becomes impossible to monitor individuals…
oh, never mind, I could go on all day.

[HortenFlyingWing]

smaller community as in the Amish, sure. peer pressure controls a small amount of people. code and ethic cannot control 6 billion.

remember, communism is the perfect system in theory…as long as you are willing to work as much as I!

[Guest]

I agree. I was simply defending the idea of communism. It may not be practical for a country with a population in the millions, but it would be a beautiful system if it worked. Of course capitalism is not a perfect system either, again a good idea, but it does seem to work much better than communism on a large scale. I just wish that a system based on something other than greed could be made to work.

[TG Moses VI]

Question: Globalization poses major problem to communism. The globalization of economies makes a plan like the controlling of businesses by a less educated/ leaderless class difficult.

Answer: The most difficult part of this plan is keeping the working class’s standard of living equal, or higher than it was before the revolution. Without capital, and with the extreme dependency on international trade to maintain the standard of living, it will be impossible to maintain a socialist society. The Workers Pary must ITSELF generate education equal to that of the Capitalists. I see no other way of keeping the Capitalists down after the revolution than to simply do as well or better financially than they did. Without funding, The movement would stagnate do to lost support by a now poorer working class. Business would crumble as would hopes to stay in power.

The masses as a whole will certainly support anything which betters their daily lives. In order to keep their support they must believe that just that is happening. No matter who you are or what your beliefs, you know that this will take capital of some sort. Unless the new “workers nation” wishes to become isolationist, it must produce at an equal or higher rate in a very short period of time. That is why communism must first be self-sufficient and on a GLOBAL BASIS. Communism is the universal revolution.

Does socialism mean equal shares for everyone?

No. People are different and have different needs. Some needs will be more expensive (in terms of resources and labour needed to satisfy them) than others.

[HortenFlyingWing]

exactly, communism cannot exist most effectively next to capitalism. capitalism is currently working to an extent, so why change our system of living if it does long term economic damage? I would like to believe I am a realist, and the reason I oppose Communism is because it simply would not work in the real world. When it comes down to it, political systems don’t have to change, people on the whole do. Man is the problem, not the governing system he creates (most of the time.)

[Guest]

I totally agree HFW.

[TG Moses VI]

Well before Communism (or any revolutionary movement can take ground) it must be supported by the majority of the masses. It doesn’t have to be the majority movement though (the American Revolution, War 1812 were two examples of minority movements). Right now things are going pretty good, but what’s to say this movement will last forever? As we speak the upper class is consolidating more of the economies wealth and power, meaning we might be setting ourself for another depression.

[Mr Ghoul]

Communism is crap!

K, take a sales business that offers a team reward for overall sales. Everyone in the company receives a equal commission, regardless of how much each individual actually sells.

Then take a other sales company thats has individual commission based on that persons sales. The more on person sells the more commission they receive.

Which Company is going to succeed, over a extended period of time?

What Companys empolyees are motivated to sell more?

What inspires the working person most?

Communism is crap!