Congratulations to Germany for a fine World Cup! :-)
US versus China for world position
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I forgive you IL for insulting me and hope your negativness is about to fade a way…
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You want for me to make a thread titled “All the bad things Canada and Canadians have done”. I would gladly create such a thread if you would quit picking on myself in particular and Canadians in general. Perhaps you will show up in Oshawa this April and tell me in person what your problems are with me man, love to see you in person. I know when I see David again in person you will be a topic of conversation, best if you were there.
I said rather clearly that i see a pattern of Canadians bringing up threads where in some respect the US gets slammed or cast in a negative light. Just leave US out of it? I didn’t say make anti-Canadian threads, but pointed out that you don’t see other nations being constantly brought up in threads for the purpose of broadcasting past and present US "faults’.
It is a pattern and their is no denying it.
Canada is falling behind several countries in the world
And yet no threads on this, only US related ones.
and hope your negativeness is about to fade a way…
But defending against people taking shots at a country is somehow negative? I wish to only see these types of threads not be created. It does not matter which nation gets bashed, none of that should happen here. But it does.
And no i’m not picking on Canadians. Only saying the pattern shows that these threads mostly come from them. And BTW other people did complain about your thread. Did you read? (dinosaur)
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IL, maybe you might be wrong about your feelings that I am anti-American. You made your allegation, fine. I defended myself, fine. If you feel you are so correct than create a poll with the Question “Is Malachi Anti-American”? shrugs
I said rather clearly that i see a pattern of Canadians bringing up threads where in some respect the US gets slammed or cast in a negative light.
IL, you claim that you are talking about Canadians in general but……IL, this is your quote about me specifically.
Not debating that. Just that it is yet another thread to make USA look bad. From a Canadian. Do they just sit around searching the internet for topics to slight the US, or is bashing the US some means at making another nation look better?
Your are talking about me as this is my thread, so this is personal between you and me. If you really did mean to say “Some Canadians harbour some anti-US sentiment” I would agree to that. But that is not me specifically.
As for Mr. dinosaur, he made false allegations much like you are. I asked him to back up his assertions with facts and he has not done so yet. I will remind you, lack of proof is never proof. Moreover, he was questioning my position on who should do the policing rather than the bias of my postings. If I read him wrong he has every opportunity to correct my interpretation of his post. Has anybody filed a complaint with me to a moderator was my point that you twisted into another unsubstantiated accusation against me.
You mention the "bullying of the US" against other nations while at the same time advocate the US, not the world or a coalition or something, enforcing environmental, labor and human rights rules upon China.Mr. dinosaur. You make false assertions and this sort of behaviour I find very disappointing. I ask you to cite ANYWHERE where I advocate that the US be the policeman of the world, if anything, it ought to take 5 minutes to find quotes from me where I say the opposite.
I suppose it is your right under free speech to nit pick everything I say and invade my threads with your bias. Have at it, I’m a big boy. However, you do that not in any capacity of authority here but merely as an angry biased person.
What would it look like if a foreigner actually liked and supported the people of the United States but thought a few of their policies should be changed to make the US an even better place? I suppose there would be some constructive critiques. Just saying “Everything is perfect and there is no room for improvement” is not really what you would want a true friend to be like would you? A good friend might actually tell you things you don’t want to hear but should. Now how do YOU react to this. You can get all pissy and defensive and beat your chest, or you could engage in polite debate with an open mind. The choice is ours to make. It seems to me that you have made the wrong choice IL, but that is YOUR choice.
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US to become 'world’s biggest oil producer
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20304848
I knew US energy production was going up but this still surprised me. So China will be the bad old oil importer and have to deal with all that that entails. The US being energy self sufficient ought to really adjust the current account balance, this bodes well for the future!
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I saw that too… which really made me wonder how nobody saw this coming earlier.
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This I got to see. Should be drilling more so we can get it faster. Not to much of shelling. Then we can export it to China for more money andkeep are gas prices at 4.00 a gallon. Then we can payback the money we owe China. I knew it would all work out. Man I was gettin worried. Phew
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@SS:
The other countries wanted Obama for 2nd term because he 's too soft on foreign politics. MPO.
All these other nations who want to run our political system should be compelled to pay our taxes.
They got the desired representation. The POTUS should just send them the full bill.
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If you feel you are so correct than create a poll with the Question “Is Malachi Anti-American”? shrugs
You got me wrong again. I wish that no nation be slighted at any point, by any thread. In the past i was partial to taking a p�ss of France, but that is wrong. People who post here might be French and not take kindly to nation bashing. I am against any nation bashing on these boards. “bashing” might even be considered ‘slighting’ as well.
“Is Malachi Anti-American”?
I would never create such a thread, that would be trolling.
If you really did mean to say “Some Canadians harbour some anti-US sentiment” I would agree to that.
I am only pointing out that the vast majority of these “comparisons” where USA is always shown to be the lessor in the analysis, comes from a thread made by Canadian. Fact. I am not specifically saying they are all or partially Anti-American, just pointing out the facts as i see them.
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On the original topic:
I don’t think China is interested in “world position” in the same way as the United States.
China doesn’t seem to involve itself in the affair of other nations outside of trade, while the US has far broader strategic/humanitarian/economic interests in the outside world.
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China reminds me of old Soviet Union. They make all sorts of territorial claims that are bogus out of general national paranoia because they are so isolated. China went the direction of the isolationists back in the interwar period for US. Eventually, the economic model will not sustain itself and growth will decline because they burned many bridges with competing nations and have little more than cheap labor to show for success. Invention wise, they just ripoff somebody else by taking ideas and calling it their own. They can’t even build aircraft carriers. Just a land power nothing more.
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@Imperious:
China reminds me of old Soviet Union. They make all sorts of territorial claims that are bogus out of general national paranoia because they are so isolated. They can’t even build aircraft carriers. Just a land power nothing more.
That doesn’t make them benign.
No, they are not interested in world influence the same way that the US is. The US is truly politically and economically global at the present time. China is really only economically global right now. Politically, they are creeping outward in Asia. Not saying they would not like to be the global political influence that the US is, because given the chance I am sure they would take it. And with the way the world is going, China will be politically powerful by controlling the world’s money and manufacture. So it will just happen differently than it did for the US.
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The China’s way of thinking is very differnt from any west country way. You must understand our cultures is so different and with different values that we don’t both act in the same way giving the same events.
China is strongly based on Confucianism. Even if they might claim to not be, Confucianesm culture is so radicated in them that it affects their politics.
They have a different view of the government than us. Apparently more than 90% of China’s population approves the government. Wich other western country can claim the same?
In the history of China, China itself never really expanded through war (exception: mongols), after Chna’s unification they mostly expanded through culture.
They had the power to subdue many small states in Asia but they never did. They did indeed grow more paranoid after what the west did with them in the last 200 years (they were humiliated).
The point of the tread is that China will probably never race against anyone for world influence. But they will fof sure defende their influence around their area.
I sincerely wish Mao never existed, but if these communist are helping China affirming real indipendence from the west, I guess it is for their best.
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They have a different view of the government than us. Apparently more than 90% of China’s population approves the government. Wich other western country can claim the same?
What authoritative states do not have high approval numbers from their citizens? When dissent can land you in prison, a camp or dead, most people would decide to approve of their government. In contrast, most western nations are true democratic republics… not the misnomer that is a “people’s republic” or “democratic people’s republic”.
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They have a different view of the government than us. Apparently more than 90% of China’s population approves the government. Wich other western country can claim the same?
What authoritative states do not have high approval numbers from their citizens? When dissent can land you in prison, a camp or dead, most people would decide to approve of their government. In contrast, most western nations are true democratic republics… not the misnomer that is a “people’s republic” or “democratic people’s republic”.
There’s a difference thou’.
You’re judging it by western standards. Let me explain why it’s not just a matter of authoritative states with high (forced) approval when we talk about China.
Chinese people thinks of the governement in a different philosophical (and religious) way.
To them, the state is not just a “representative of a country”. To them, the state is like the head of a family. To them the Government is respected like it was your “daddy”. Also, in China respect for your family comes before any indivual desire. They have a GREAT respect to their parents, in a “religious” way. You can say that they pose the same respect to their parents that a western religious person pose for Christ. They’re -devote- to it.
At the base to the confucianesm there is a BIG respect for the State (Government), and the believe that all the decisions made by the head of the state are for the greater good. The same religion that gives them so much “trust power” is also the same religious that supports revolts.
In confucianism, the emperor/state is believed to have a “contract” with the gods that give them autority to reign. BUT this contract can be revocated at any time, if the people thinks that the emperor(government) is not working for the benefit of the people.
Let’s also remember that China was the FIRST PLACE in the world that believe in People’s Sovereignity. This happened in 220BC. At that time we still had Roman Republic (Then Empire), Aristocracy and such.
In China, from the 220BC even a farmer had the right to become a minister, an emperor! He just had to study, focus hard, and win statal exams.
The west (and then the rest of the world) was very late to the “people soveiregnity” idea, as late as 1789 (if you think on a larger scale, it was very recent).
If you ask 1000 Chineses, even outside of their country, 900 of them will tell you they approve their government.
If you like to get more information on the differences of cultures and kill some old clichés, I advice you to read a work issued by the USA government to the Anthropologist “Ruth Benedict” to depict the real differencies between USA and JAPAN during ww2. (And it’s very similar to what I said about the Chineses).
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I agree with Noll’s impression of how the Chinese view their government. I would be unwise to think the Chinese only support their government due to fear, that they are really ready to overthrow a government that might turn militaristic under the right circumstances.
They really due view government as ‘Daddy’ whereas many in the US arm themselves against the government and some try to starve government into near nothingness. Not passing any judgement but you have to look at some of the positive results they get if any lessons can be learned.
China does lack much in the way of innovation. The US has significant advantages in the philosophy of their nations makeup and how it came into existence. You don’t get Apple, Facebook and the innovation of the US. Because the US does not fear the questioning of authority, young kids with great ideas can leap frog older generations.
On the other hand, could it possibly be that China does derive some benefit from what their government does do? If one can suspend their complete belief that all things government are evil then if lessons can be drawn, they might be if an open mind exists.
On the US energy production explosion, an interesting article from the Canadian point of view.
Selling oil to Asia critical: Minister
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/11/15/20358056.html
From wired magazine, another related article on the explosion of US energy production and its impact on green energy.
Abundant Natural Gas and Oil Are Putting the Kibosh on Clean Energy
http://www.wired.com/business/2012/08/mf_naturalgas/When I was looking for the former link I stumbled across this article and it seems to touch on all the points recently brought up. Lots of reading……no wonder my mornings always take so long!
Why the Clean Tech Boom Went Bust
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Just amazes me where these goverment people can’t give the extra oil to there own country. Ain’t gas 1.50 to 2.00 more a gallon in Canada? More important to export it (profits) then to take care of your own people first so they can afford it.
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You’re judging it by western standards.
To them, the state is not just a “representative of a country”. To them, the state is like the head of a family. To them the Government is respected like it was your “daddy”. Also, in China respect for your family comes before any indivual desire.
Yes, I am judging by Western standards. But if we do not have an agreed upon “ideal” standard then everything is relative and even a government such as National Socialism has every legitimacy if it was an anthropological/historically philosophical standard.
I certainly believe what you are saying about government in the typical Eastern (or simply Chinese)-mind meaning something different than it does in a Western-Liberal mind. That is a logical anthropological assumption. The Western (especially American) experience of popular sovereignty and governmental oppression is quite different from those in the East or Middle-east.
Let’s also remember that China was the FIRST PLACE in the world that believe in People’s Sovereignity. This happened in 220BC. At that time we still had Roman Republic (Then Empire), Aristocracy and such.
In China, from the 220BC even a farmer had the right to become a minister, an emperor! He just had to study, focus hard, and win statal exams.
The west (and then the rest of the world) was very late to the “people soveiregnity” idea, as late as 1789 (if you think on a larger scale, it was very recent).
Even if this is true, it is either not the same as Western conceptions of popular sovereignty or the people do not exercise their authority over their leaders very much.
If you like to get more information on the differences of cultures and kill some old clich�s, I advice you to read a work issued by the USA government to the Anthropologist “Ruth Benedict” to depict the real differencies between USA and JAPAN during ww2. (And it’s very similar to what I said about the Chineses).
I am quite familiar o the philosophical/theological differences between WWII Japan and the United States. I am not sure how this directly relates to our discussion though; other than that we are comparing US government philosophy to another Eastern/Confucian model. Though, if anything, I don’t believe the Japanese believed as much as the Chinese in popular sovereignty.
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Japanese and Chinese are more similar than what you think, in their philosiphical approach to the government. (or at least they were)
That’s because confucianism was integrated in the Japanese Aristocracy based government. I proposed Ruth Benedict because as I believe you are an American, it’s a work written by one, to learn and understeand the reality under the actions of Japan (in this case), and in order to remove the cliches about it.
As I’m a westerner too, but I am an Academic in Asian history, philosophy and languages, (僕の選考は日本語だ～) , I believe it’s important to not project ethnocentric points of view into other countries.
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Japanese and Chinese are more similar than what you think, in their philosiphical approach to the government. (or at least they were)
I believe we were talking about WWII era governments. If you are asserting that China has a historical confucian respect for their government, and Japan does (did) too, then I agree. But are you also ascribing the same popular sovereignty tradition in China to Japan of WWII (and immediately pre-WWII)? Because in my studies (I too have a degree in History) I did not get the impression that the Japanese people ever had the option (in reality or in their mindset) to overthrow/change their government. Doing so was not their purview or authority… which is the opposite of popular sovereignty.
That’s because confucianism was integrated in the Japanese Aristocracy based government. I proposed Ruth Benedict because as I believe you are an American, it’s a work written by one, to learn and understeand the reality under the actions of Japan (in this case), and in order to remove the cliches about it.
I take your suggestion into consideration. I cannot say I am going to go out and read it right away, but I appreciate the source. Have I issued any of the cliches you are referencing?
As I’m a westerner too, but I am an Academic in Asian history, philosophy and languages, (僕の選考は日本語だ～) , I believe it’s important to not project ethnocentric points of view into other countries.
I believe it is important to understand other cultures, for it does explain much of their behavior/historical tradition. However, I don’t believe that what I have said thus far is projecting my ethnocentric point of view upon the Chinese or anyone else. I simply pointed out that their government does not allow for much free thought or exercise of opinion. Even MrMalachiCrunch agreed with me on that. It was a statement, and a factual one too. I did not say whether their system of government was right or wrong, though I would gladly share my opinion on that.
I do reject relativism. That does not mean I expect every country or people to behave or believe the same things. But I do believe that there are objective standards of good and bad or positive and negative (most people do). Injecting those standards into a discussion is not being ethnocentric, it helps us define the situation and analyze it from a common framework. Otherwise, we can say that anything is acceptable given the proper context. I could elaborate, but hopefully you understand.
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In some authoritarian states, the majority of the people do feel oppressed and believe that the government lacks legitimacy.
However, in other authoritarian states, the majority of the people might still approve of the government (despite lack of true democracy) for a variety of reasons. My understanding is that China falls within this category.
In many developing countries democracy is not the highest priority of the people. Economic growth, increasing national prestige, and improving quality of life often provide more legitimacy to a regime than elections could.
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