Clyde,
This is not a matter of trying to please everyone. It is an issue of having a product not ready for market. I am not taking issue with the game itself. The problem I have with the handling of E40 and P40 is the the large changes to set-up and rules that is still ongoing. If to balance the game all that was needed was to add a couple units or remove a couple, that is fine, but the changes have been profound each time.
I too have an appreciation for game design, 3 games and 15 years later. But I also understand that if such large changes were warranted, then the game was nowhere near ready.
In any other industry, the company would get punished by the consumer. I can live with little issues, but not when they require such changes well over a year after release. And are the changes even going to be accepted by Avalonhill?
Ie: when I buy a car, I don’t want it to be a work in progress.
As a consumer, this is not unreasonable. $200 may not be much money to some, but it is plenty to me. Larry has lost my confidence, and I am not buying his products in the future. And I am not alone.
I totally agree. I thought we were heading somewhere and when Alpha3 rules came out I was excited as everyone to see what improvements were made. Instead new aa guns are revealed that totally influence every corner of the board. It was a massive change to a units profile that will most likely end up breaking the game after the solution is found. It was the massive changes to the aa gun rules that came from nowhere( I never saw people complaining about aa guns on his site) that have soured me to the process. I think he doesn’t want gamers, he wants playtesters. So he’ll keep tweaking the rules until a few months from production of his newest project. I am with Jim in that I won’t be buying the next A&A product until it has been peer reviewed for at least 2 years.
It didnt really come from nowhere. We’ve been complaining to Larry for a while that Sea Lion was too easy. Instead of giving you infantry, he put some aa guns in and then nerfed them so they were far weaker against planes than before.
Exactly, he took an issue that was being complained about and changed a units profile all over the board. Influencing all powers. Not well thought out. He should have been concerned with finalizing this edition and not making major changes to unit stats.
It is a far cry better than dumping +4 infantry in England. At least the AA Guns dont have attack or defense values and are relatively expensive meaning they probably wont be replaced for Russia, England, America, Japan or Australia if you think about it.
I like the AA Gun changes. I think it really makes Germany a lot stronger while failing to increase Russia much at all. (Russia has 3 planes, 1 AA Gun can take out 3 planes. Germany has 11 planes, 1 AA Gun cannot take out 11 planes, it cant even shoot at 11 planes.)
I think this is a knee jerk reaction due to Sea Lion being made almost impossible on Germany 3 and not a real value judgement of the real impact on the game, personally. Not just you, but others too. I don’t think you are really seeing the powerful impact on balancing the game and getting it away from hoping for good luck in England. IMHO, of course. I’ve pointed out before how this can be very overwhelming for the Russians to manage. THey cannot possibly hit 3 or 4 large stacks of units, especially if there are AA Guns there. They would get depleted of their powerful units too fast. That means they have to retreat, meaning less income over the rounds for Russia, more for Germany/Japan/Italy.
Of course, it means London isn’t taken, so Engand needs to get on the ball and get SZ 125 opened up and start landing reinforcements FAST to keep Russia from collapsing.
I have yet to come to the conclusion that Sealion is out, that’s why I’m running that experiment. I do think it got harder.
Changing a unit statistic all across the board is my issue. I think we’ll find out why in a few weeks/months at most. That being said, I also like the new rules, I wish he had written his next game around these rules. Since they are going to have far reaching on board results, the starting setup is probably wrong and needs to be tweaked. New unit rules like this work best for new games, not games that have already been purchased.
I’m sure Axis and Allies 1937 will have the same AA Gun rules. ^_^
I don’t think they have as big of an impact as I think you think they do, however. American guns, useless. They’ll never be brought to bear anywhere, especially now that Kill America First is out of the question. British guns? Without Sea Lion they’re useless as well. Japanese guns? Seriously? I’m not wasting transports on these, so they’re useless as well. Russian guns but I can overwhelm them with German planes. German guns of course, very big use now, since you dont need a bunch to defend home. Italian guns have marginal use…great replacement for the guns in Germany so you can bring all of them from Germany.
And I think with the change to England, Sea Lion round 3 is out. Round 4 there is still consideration, but probably out due to cost.
@Cmdr:
It didnt really come from nowhere. We’ve been complaining to Larry for a while that Sea Lion was too easy. Instead of giving you infantry, he put some aa guns in and then nerfed them so they were far weaker against planes than before.
Sealion should always be a longshot for Germany. The game needs to favor the Allies. As it did historically. Germany will have its shot at winning, but it will come down to the Eastern Front, not Sealion. I totally agree with Larry, Sealion should not happen. Germany did not have the navy to conduct the invasion across the channel. Their best hope was destroying UK’s economic resources.
I dont mind sea lion happening, what I mind was how bloody easy it was and before Russia or America could be in the game. The changes at least give the allies a chance to make it hard for the Germans.
@manincellv:
@Cmdr:
It didnt really come from nowhere. We’ve been complaining to Larry for a while that Sea Lion was too easy. Instead of giving you infantry, he put some aa guns in and then nerfed them so they were far weaker against planes than before.
Sealion should always be a longshot for Germany. The game needs to favor the Allies. As it did historically. Germany will have its shot at winning, but it will come down to the Eastern Front, not Sealion. I totally agree with Larry, Sealion should not happen. Germany did not have the navy to conduct the invasion across the channel. Their best hope was destroying UK’s economic resources.
The whole point to keeping Sealion viable is to offer alternative modes of play for increased re-playability. I want to keep coming back to this game year after year, not quit playing altogether because the developer can’t seem to keep a direction in the development process. This game should not be a historical recreation because then the axis would stand no chance, the WW2 theme is great because it allows us to say things like, ‘I must have assassinated Yamamoto by P-38 because I just sunk the Japanese fleet!’ Or Kesselring in Italy, Rommel in Africa….ya know.
It just isn’t possible to do a WW2 recreation on a board game, look to Advanced Third Reich if you need to see why.
@manincellv:
@Cmdr:
It didnt really come from nowhere. We’ve been complaining to Larry for a while that Sea Lion was too easy. Instead of giving you infantry, he put some aa guns in and then nerfed them so they were far weaker against planes than before.
Sealion should always be a longshot for Germany. The game needs to favor the Allies. As it did historically. Germany will have its shot at winning, but it will come down to the Eastern Front, not Sealion. I totally agree with Larry, Sealion should not happen. Germany did not have the navy to conduct the invasion across the channel. Their best hope was destroying UK’s economic resources.
The game doesn’t need to favor a side. (And it’s tricky to say that history favored the Allies, when the change of a single person could have meant German victory - that being their supreme military commander.) And Sea Lion was possible - Germany just made a few mistakes and got unlucky with the enigma and stuff. The main thing is there shouldn’t ever be a single strategy that will almost always work and be hard to stop, such as the Alpha + .2 Sea Lion.
But Sea Lion is still viable. The only difference is that England does not have to abandon the entire world to make Sea Lion hard on the Germans, now they can engage on the global scale I think they were always intended to work on and not have to figure Germany is going to murder them if they dont give up their attacks on Africa, Med and give up their fleet.
@Cmdr:
But Sea Lion is still viable. The only difference is that England does not have to abandon the entire world to make Sea Lion hard on the Germans, now they can engage on the global scale I think they were always intended to work on and not have to figure Germany is going to murder them if they dont give up their attacks on Africa, Med and give up their fleet.
Yeah, I didn’t present my point clearly. Sea Lion is still viable, but it’s not as easy or necessary.
@Cmdr:
But Sea Lion is still viable. The only difference is that England does not have to abandon the entire world to make Sea Lion hard on the Germans, now they can engage on the global scale I think they were always intended to work on and not have to figure Germany is going to murder them if they dont give up their attacks on Africa, Med and give up their fleet.
Yeah, I didn’t present my point clearly. Sea Lion is still viable, but it’s not as easy or necessary.
Agreed.
@mantlefan:
@Cmdr:
But Sea Lion is still viable. The only difference is that England does not have to abandon the entire world to make Sea Lion hard on the Germans, now they can engage on the global scale I think they were always intended to work on and not have to figure Germany is going to murder them if they dont give up their attacks on Africa, Med and give up their fleet.
:roll:
Not this again. Just because it’s possible for Germany to take London DOES NOT MEAN that it is a reliably winning strategy anymore.
“Sealion is still possible” DOES NOT EQUAL “Sealion is still a good strat”
Well, from what i read here, she didn’t say that.
@Cmdr:
But Sea Lion is still viable. The only difference is that England does not have to abandon the entire world to make Sea Lion hard on the Germans, now they can engage on the global scale I think they were always intended to work on and not have to figure Germany is going to murder them if they dont give up their attacks on Africa, Med and give up their fleet.
I don’t think it was ever viable against a competent Allied player. It was just a better shot than getting bogged down in Russia. Now Russia is the best hope, but it’s in no way easier than before.
I said 1 AA Gun can take out 3 planes, I never claimed that Russia only had one AA Gun period. Russia has 3 planes, period, at the start of the game, so 1 german AA Gun can, theoretically, shoot down all 3 Russian planes if they attack. However, no matter how good your dice, 1 Russian AA Gun cannot ever shoot down 11 German planes in Alpha 3.
I also agree that Sea Lion was NEVER profitable against a determined allied opponent. It ALWAYS cost more than you got out of it, and it was ALWAYS easy to convoy raid to death by the Americans netting Germany only 5 IPC a round after expending at least 200 IPC taking it. (AA Gun losses, units stuck there, 10 transports being placed, etc, etc, etc.) It is, however, still a viable strategy. You CAN take London, and it CAN be a good idea. It IS a good strategy still. I’d rank Alpha 3 Sea Lion equal too Alpha 2 Barbarossa. They’re both still possible, but that does not mean that either are the optimal strategy.
I still say being able to take out England AND France before Russia AND America are in play is a bone headed move by the game developers. I am very glad to see they rectifed that. Very glad. Just like they killed Crush India with the Alphas, they killed Sea Lion pre-WWII in the alphas. There were tears of blood over the loss of Kill India first, it was said that Japan had no chance to do anything anymore, that the Axis now had no way to win the game…and then the good players figured out new strategies. The same will be true now that Sea Lion isn’t the success it used to be, now that people have to really put thought into Sea Lion and take advantage of tactical errors of their opponents. The cry babies will leave, and the players will figure out new strategies.
In both cases, loss of CIF and OSL, I am glad. It should be hard to take a capitol. It shouldn’t be a walkin. And, except for France which is really designed as an IPC boost to the Axis, really only on the map for historicalness, there should be no loss of capitol before Round 4 except if a player makes a big mistake.
She said three units added. She’s right. The UK had one AA gun, and got three more added for a total of four.
Sorry to interupt the pissing contest.
@mantlefan:
I do not see why I am being taken to task for 1. Being accused of not counting when the thing I am being attacked for was actually accounted for in a post that was probably deleted BY THE PERSON ATTACKING ME and 2. Also being taken to task over counting units in a way that looks at practical reality over useless technicality.
Jen, if you can actually make an argument that Germany is stronger relative to russia after these changes, please make it.
Since you probably can’t (except on the thinnest of reeds), please admit that your assessment was incorrect and that Russia is actually (even if only minorly so) stronger relative to Germany.
I know that I probably TECHNICALLY misplaced a period or semicolon, but if you could stop throwing up smoke screens and technicalities and get to the actual issue (Is Germany stronger relative to russia after A3 or is Russia Stronger relative to Germany after A3) the game would be grateful.
I have explained on MANY occasions in NUMEROUS threads. Why dont you go back and read some of them?
Give you hints:
1) Fighters, Tactical Bombers, Strategic Bombers
2) Income
3) AA Guns
4) Postion
5) Allies
Germany is much stronger than Russia, especially if they dont go blowing all their income for 3 rounds attempting to get England.
@mantlefan:
Who gained more on the Eastern Front from A2 to A3? Did the Germans or Russians (or Axis or Allies if you rather) gain more from Alpha +.2 to Alpha+.3?
On the German/Russian front, Russia get 2 AA Guns (EXTRA) for a Total of 4, Germany got 4 AA Guns for a total of 6.
As for new units (defined as not facilities or AA Guns) neither side got more.
If you take out Sea Lion, Germany has + 84 IPC not spent on transports, Russia has nothing extra. Japan can still pummel the crud out of Russia since the few infatnry they get from Mongolia is really not relevant to any form of defense. Instead of getting IPC, Russia now gets nothing but a few more infantry that will get destroyed while Japan advances. Italy is in the same position to push forward has they always have been. Germany has SIGNIFICANTLY more money to spend on Russia, and plenty of AA Guns to throw on the front lines, making Russia spend Armor or risk fighters. Russia can also put some AA Guns on the front, but Germany is in a much better position to suicide units to take them out than Russia ever will be.
England wont fall. So what? Once Russia is done, Germany has won the game, essentially, now it’s a matter of keeping England on it’s knees and reinforcing Europe to the point no invasion can possibly succeed, then rack up cash and drop a huge fleet in SZ 113 and take out England (assuming the Allies have not yet conceeded the game.)
I am, of coure, ballparking here. I’ve detailed each move pretty much in other threads, as I’ve mentioned before. Nutshell: Germany got more AA Guns than Russia did in the new rules, Italy also got extra guns. Without dumping all that extra money you were spending on transports, you can now out man the Russians. The Russians can no longer get a free 12 IPC to spend in Moscow, Novgorod, Volgorod, now they get a few infantry in the middle of nowhere will they get annhillated by the Japanese. Russia has been very weakened, but if all you have ever done is Sea Lion, you may not really notice how significant the shift was on the German/Russian/Italian front.
