The Missing Mechanized Unit: Assault Guns

[toblerone77]

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

[toblerone77]

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1*/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. *Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

[General 6 Stars]

Ya Tob I here ya. In my 3 39 global games, we do have all the advance pieces that you are talking about and more pieces with them all being D12 games. Just makin some suggestions to pieces and converting them to D6’s.

[toblerone77]

@SS:

Ya Tob I here ya. In my 3 39 global games, we do have all the advance pieces that you are talking about and more pieces with them all being D12 games. Just makin some suggestions to pieces and converting them to D6’s.

I think it’s do-able task. I know there’s quite a few of us using them to varying degrees. Tall Paul has got a huge project for his custom set up he HAS to use D12 dice if I understand his system correctly. Not only that he’s had to paint and decal because he’ll have one type of sculpt that has multiple variants.

My personal project/variant I’m slugging through uses all kinds of stuff and trying to get them in harmony while making it worth while to the people playing it is a chore. All-in-all it’s still pretty fun.

The cool thing is Coach and HBG really seem to get it with the stuff they’re bringing into the game for us guys who like to have custom games and rules.

Personally I like to see what everyone’s doing with their custom sculpts as they come out. So it’s all good to me.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Don’t know how my other thread could become a semi-official HR…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32892.msg1243157#msg1243157
I have no kind of authority to such a claim.

It was a more limited paradigm inside a simplified way of giving stats and considering those units: Mechanized (MI/ SPA/ SPG-TD) vs Tank (Light/ Medium/ Advance/ Heavy) units, which I hoped anyone could add more specific input, such as CWO give an helping hand in better naming these categories.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

Sorry, no pun intended.

I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

Same for me.
I will comment yours in my next post.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

When you say:

in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

are you including Mech Inf in itself?

Your way of seeing SPAs, is clearly within the most popular way of using them.

On the other part, your way of reasoning TD is original and needs to be emphasized.

Instead of just giving a specific value to TD in itself, you have a more larger scope.
It give a more specific tactical values to TD inside a set of other units:

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Light Tank A2D1M2C4 + TD A3D1M2C5 = A5+1D2M2C9
vs
Mech Inf A1D2M2C4 + SPA A2D2M2C5 = A3+1D4M2C9

Both paired units keep 8 A/D pts for 9 IPCs. Which seems at first glance quite balance.
Mech Inf+ SPA are a balance pairs on offense and defense: A4/D4
But clearly TD+LightTk are far more dangerous on offense: A6/D2

And your historical way of seeing TD units seems the exact opposite of Knp7765 TDs:
@knp7765:

@SS:

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

I think tank destroyers were more of a defensive weapon – ie. laying in wait for attacking armor to come to it.
So I would think attack 2, defend 3 and the roll of 1 allows it to target when defending, although I think the targeting ability should be on attack and defense, but if I had to choose one I would choose defense first.

On an historical accuracy point, still don’t know which aspect should get the better hand to define more accuratly TD:
Bigger gun, often used as support for Light Tank and less armor than a Tank: A3D1
+1A when paired to Light Tank
Stay within OOB paradigm.
vs
Almost same armor than a Tank, but no turret which mean less offensive manoeuvrability: A2D3.
Or a A2D2 with some Tank Hunter ability mostly on defense. Or, as Knp7765 pointed, the Tank Hunter capacity, even on offense, is in itself a defensive capacity.  
But the “1” rolled targeting casualty of the Tank Hunter capacity is outside AAA paradigm rules.

This was my general analysis.

Now I want to rise a question of game balance and units optimization and specificity:
With such an offensive power A6 with 2 units,
the blitzing capacity
and the low cost: 4+5= 9 IPCs

It seems to me that Medium Tank becomes a non-sense buy.
2 MdTk get same A6 for 12 IPCs.
With LTk+TD you get an additionnal Inf for the same cost of 2 MdTk.
This means:
LTk+TD+Inf= A7D4C12, 3 hits vs 2MdTk A6D6C12, 2 hits

Because A&A gives an advantage to the attacker when it comes to where and how it chooses to attack: this combination of LTk and TD 2A3 moving 2 spaces seems powerful even if it cannot hold the conquered ground with a 2D1 as MdTk 2D3 (which is far less important than the first attacking assault).

I think it needs a little cost adjustment and/or A/D modif. to fix it.
Because, at 9 IPCs it should keep a 8 A/D pts total to be equal match to Mech Inf+ SPA.
Option A:
Maybe just giving TD A2D2M2C5, +1A to LTk when paired with.
So LTk+TD= A5D3M2C9

Option B:
Or rising the defense and cost of LTk A2D2M2C5.
So LTk + TD A3D1C5 = A6D3C10

These will keep the interesting tactical defence vs offence difference between these 2 paired units:
MI + SPA vs LTk + TD.
Option A) A4D4C9 vs A5D3C9
Option B) A4D4C9 vs A6D3C10

---

Here is the scaled progression of paired units moving at 2.

Based upon B) LTk A2D2M2C5 & TD A3D1M2C5  vs A) LTk A2D1M2C4 & TD A2D2M2C5

1 MInf +Art = A4D4C8M1
2 Mech Infs = A2D4C8
                                                 1 MI+ LTank = A3D3C8
                                                 2 LightTanks = A4D2C8
1 MI+ LTank = A3D4C9
1 MI+ TankD= A4D3C9               1 MI+ TankD= A3D4C9
1 MInf+ SPA= A4D4C9                1 LTk + SPA = A4D3C9
                                                 1 LTk + TD = A5D3C9

2 LightTanks= A4D4C10
1 LTk+ SPA = A4D4C10
1 TD + SPA = A5D3C10                1 TD + SPA = A4D4C10
2 TankDests= A6D2C10                 2 TankDests= A4D4C10
1 TD + LTk = A6D3C10

1 SPA+MdTk= A5D5C11
1 LTk+MdTk= A5D5C11                 1 LTk+MdTk= A5D4C10
1 TD+MdTk = A6D4C11                1 TD+MdTk = A5D5C11

2 Med Tanks= A6D6C12

My preferred choice is option A, on the right.
Because, when a Tank is present you get the same offensive edge for a lower cost.
And keeps the best attacking value A6 to 2 Medium Tanks.

[toblerone77]

Well If somebody really wants to make it easy they can just take the HBG D12 stats and divide them by 2 and round up or down. There were also some older games on TripleA (before G40) that had stats for non-OOB units. The title was 1941 but has been removed from the DL list.

[crusaderiv]

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2   3     3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.      (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1   2     2   (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2  3    3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.       (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Infantry tank (Stug III) 4 1  2    2  (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

Where is the difference between an Artillery unit and what you put as an Infantry tank?
Both move 1 space only!

I’m puzzled about your reference on STUG III because F and G model have a longer main gun and were used mainly as Tank Destroyer around 1942 and latter.

Is it possible that your “Infantry Tank” is just another name for a Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA) which many put at A2D2M2C5 and +1A to a paired Infantry?

I have just check on HBG sculpts, there is only 2 types which can fit both descriptions, and Stug IIIG is clearly a TD:
Hummel Self-Propelled Artillery
Stug IIIG Tank Destroyers

I’m under the impression that your Self-Propelled Gun is a Stug IIIG type.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2  3    3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.       (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

Another way to say it is:
Tank Destroyer A2D2M2C6, get +1 A/D bonus when any enemy’s Tank is present. Always hit Tank first.

Are you excluding Tank Destroyer, which means don’t get the +1 bonus and can’t target them?

[toblerone77]

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

[toblerone77]

When these guns first came out I considered using them like the AAA guns of 1942SE and Global 2.0. They worked exactly like a AAA unit against armor except on offense they operated just like artillery with a move of two. There is a TON of stuff you could do with these. There’s really no right or wrong with these.

[knp7765]

Hey Yavid,
You mentioned a mechanized AA gun but we currently don’t have a piece to represent them. When AMERIKA comes out we will. At least for Germany, Japan and US.

[toblerone77]

@knp7765:

Hey Yavid,
You mentioned a mechanized AA gun but we currently don’t have a piece to represent them. When AMERIKA comes out we will. At least for Germany, Japan and US.

You could totally paint those too to match OOB if you wanted. I know a lot of guys do some some single color paint jobs on thier units for various uses.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

I see.
However, do you have an idea which kind of sculpt replica suits Germany for the Tank Destroyer, if you exclude the Stug III G?
Is their another TD in the German army?

[General 6 Stars]

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

Yes its from the game we play.

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

@toblerone77:

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor. The model HBG sells looks to be an anti-armor model, However it could represent either depending upon one’s taste.

Yes its from the game we play.

What is the sculpt you used as Tank Destroyer (SPG)?
@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
SELF PROPELLED GUN 6 2   3     3
The target of self propelled gun is always tank.      (If there’s no more tank, this unit attack & defend at 2 against others units).

[General 6 Stars]

I’m using the Hummel from HBG ( haven’t looked for different one yet ) and is only available through Weapons development Tech starting on turn 7. But if you draw a card and says free tech roll during the first 6 turns, then you have a chance to get it if you roll a 6.

[crusaderiv]

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor.

Yes exactly. Our game begin in 1939 so we start the game with the early Stug.

However, do you have an idea which kind of sculpt replica suits Germany for the Tank Destroyer, if you exclude the Stug III G?
Is their another TD in the German army?

Yes. The Jagdpanzer series like the Marder/Hetzer.

For the german tank destroyer I choose the Elephant from CinC! (I love that beast)!!!
And SU 100 for the Russian.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD):

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can only blitz when paired to a Tank.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry
Tank Hunter as a tank support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit can give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed with both MI and Tk on attack.

I think it could be viable and balance. I will try to show it in my next post.