G40 Tourney Discussion/question(s)

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

Proposed means nothing until he puts them on Page 1.

Then why is it being discussed here?

Because I should never have discussed proposed changes before they were officially added, so it was my mistake to even introduce them.

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This issue came up in another game:

One person decided to put or move another person’s units and then complained that the pieces were used illegally.  Likewise, if you take pieces off the board without killing them in a legal battle then your opponent is allowed to place them back on the board.  I am not going to say WHO it was (but he or she knows who they are) but my official ruling in all such cases will be:

First offense:  Warning.  Any illegal act that happened due to the change will stand as punishment for screwing up the board on purpose.
Second offense:  Expulsion from the tournament.

Notes:  Only applies to tournament games.  You can play “bollshoot” all you want in non-tournament (or league) games.  (Like the card game of similar name.)
Notes:  In one game a person added units around and/or moved them illegally for an opponent, in a completely seperate game a person took pieces off the board that should not have been removed.  There are a total of four individuals involved, so please don’t just go off half cocked thinking I am talking about you specifically.  If you have a PM from me in your box about your acts in a tournament game, then you know who you are.  If you do not, then don’t worry about it.

Lastly, I want to clarify something:

If you discover, while doing India’s turn that you screwed up America’s income, you are allowed to fix it.  Since your opponent has not had a chance to assume your income was correct, there is no harm, no foul.  I refuse to penalize someone because they forgot an objective or forgot to put a flag out.  If it becomes habitual then I might start ruling against you specifically, but we all make mistakes.  I’ve yet to play someone without them forgetting a flag at some point, or forgetting to remove a flag at some point.

I want to assume that all players are honest, that they won’t go out of their way to screw things up.  Putting a Russian destroyer up at the very tippity top of the screen in SZ 127, where someone might not see it is not what I mean.  That’s honest play.  Call it the fog of war.  What I am talking about is hiding pieces under other pieces, removing pieces, failing to remove pieces that should have been removed or taking pieces off that should not have been removed.  Purposely failing to update your funds to the correct amount either to say on your turn you should have an extra XX IPC or actually spending more than you should.  Etc.

Basically, the map you post should be legal to the best of your ability.  It’s not fair if you expect your opponent to point out every last typo in your posts.  Likewise, if it is clear what your intent really was, it should not be held against you if you typed something wrong.  For one, there are not Infnatry so if you want to be a sea lawyer, you could claim none of the INFANTRY moved, only INFNATRY.  That’s unfair.  Likewise, if someone specifically said they hit Java but really meant Sumatra and the pieces on the board and the battles are accurate for Sumatra (regardless what Java is or is not) then it’s pretty clear you meant to hit Sumatra and not Java.

[jim010]

Because I should never have discussed proposed changes before they were officially added, so it was my mistake to even introduce them.

OK.

[jim010]

I assume it is the responsibilty of the person who would have just finished to ensure the map he/she posted is correct?

And if a mistake is found, it is the responsibilty of the the current player to point them out, even if the mistake is to the detriment of the current player?

[jim010]

Putting a Russian destroyer up at the very tippity top of the screen in SZ 127, where someone might not see it is not what I mean.  That’s honest play.  Call it the fog of war.  What I am talking about is hiding pieces under other pieces

Isn’t the piece that is hidden fall under the same category as hiding the DD in the upper corner?  Fog of war?

I would think it is expected that the attacker checks for himself what is in a zone before attacking it?

As for the rest, is that not outright cheating, removing or adding units?

I do realize that mistakes are made (and I make plenty), but I thought this was settled when it was stated that the typed moves hold more weight then a map?

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

I assume it is the responsibilty of the person who would have just finished to ensure the map he/she posted is correct?

And if a mistake is found, it is the responsibilty of the the current player to point them out, even if the mistake is to the detriment of the current player?

The first person to notice a mistake should point it out.  The rule of mistakes being permanent assumes a significant number of turns has gone by.  (America makes an honest mistake, Italy goes, France doesnt notice, Germany goes, Russia doesnt notice it, then on Japan’s turn it is pointed out, then it’s too late, because many turns have gone by where you should have caught it.)  Players are always free to come to a resolution on their own without an official ruling, mind you.  If you go a full round and forget to collect 2 IPC for Brazil, for instance, and your opponent doesnt mind letting you have the cash, then there is no reason to call for moderation, right?

No, I see hiding units under other tiles as deliberate subterfuge.  Putting it in the corner is still a place your opponent should be scanning, if he fails to do so, then it’s his fault.  Moving your tiles around to see what’s under them is not something you’d expect your opponent to do routinely.  I can see how a base might get tucked under something, but some of it should still be showing and only on those itsy bitsy islands should it ever be a problem.  What I am thinking about is hiding a battleship tile under a pair of Aircraft Carrier tiles.  (Example attached.)

In SZ 6 there are 2 Fighters, 2 Aircraft Carriers and 1 Battleship, but you cannot see the Battleship.  It is purposely hidden from view with no reason to suspect one might exist there at all.
In SZ 127 there is a destroyer, but it’s tucked into a corner in hopes the enemy won’t see it.  It is visible, however, and if the opponent fails to account for it, it’s a strategic error on his part.

That’s the difference.

Cheating Examples.AAM

[BigBadBruce]

@Cmdr:

Any dmg shuts down the facility until the facility is repaired. (So no more sitting there with 7 dmg on your Major Complex and building 3 units a round.)

Please could you point out, in Larry’s page where you see such rule? I couldn’t find anything regarding that you have to have 0 DMG on Major IC in order to produce units.

[BigBadBruce]

@DutchmanD:

Almost all those changes seem to be advantage to the Allies.  The only trade off is a possible sooner fall of India due to SBR?  Axis can be hurt by SBR too.  Axis get no additional NOs but for the round 7 or 8 taking of Volgograd? The Axis get one concession of not having to take 2 German fighters to So. Italy… that’s it?  Did Japan get any additional advatage at all?

I don’t see, with what you are listing as the changes, how Alpha 3 is any more balanced than Alpha 2 as the Allies are getting nearly all the benefits of the change.  Sea Lion, which was an advatange to the Axis, is now effectively removed and they have nearly nothing in exchange.

I totally agree with you.

[BigBadBruce]

@Cmdr:

I don’t think BBB noticed that the tactical bomber in Italy is now a Strategic bomber.

For instance, in Alpha 2 you can bring untold number of tactical bombers to “bomb a base” and use them as fodder to protect your strategic bombers from AA Guns over factories.

1. I did notice, didn’t changed my point of view.

2. Really? Please could you refer me where you see this, because when I read Larry’s page I see :

For each “1” rolled, a bomber of the attacker’s choice is immediately removed.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

@Cmdr:

Any dmg shuts down the facility until the facility is repaired. (So no more sitting there with 7 dmg on your Major Complex and building 3 units a round.)

Please could you point out, in Larry’s page where you see such rule? I couldn’t find anything regarding that you have to have 0 DMG on Major IC in order to produce units.

Yes, page 1:

The target is considered inoperable if it receives any hits. It can be repaired by paying 1 IPC for the removal of each chip. This is done during the players next Purchase & Repair phase 1.
The maximum damage a major IC can receive is 20 damage markers. Minor ICs and bases can’t receive more than 6 damage markers each.

Any damage to Major Complexes, Minor Complexes, Naval Bases and/or Air Bases shut down the facility unless repaired to 0 Damage.  He has since added a second option for Major Complexes, but has added the “being considered” disclaimer.  If that becomes official, it is official.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

2. Really? Please could you refer me where you see this, because when I read Larry’s page I see :

For each “1” rolled, a bomber of the attacker’s choice is immediately removed.

“ATTACKER’S CHOICE” you quoted it yourself.  A tactical bomber is a bomber.

So if you go in with 3 escort fighters, bring 8 tactical bombers to bomb the Naval Base and Air Base in London and 2 strategic bombers to hit the Major Complex, then during the air battle, you can lose all the tactical bombers “insulating” your strategic bombers from Interceptor fire.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

@DutchmanD:

Almost all those changes seem to be advantage to the Allies.  The only trade off is a possible sooner fall of India due to SBR?  Axis can be hurt by SBR too.  Axis get no additional NOs but for the round 7 or 8 taking of Volgograd? The Axis get one concession of not having to take 2 German fighters to So. Italy… that’s it?  Did Japan get any additional advatage at all?

I don’t see, with what you are listing as the changes, how Alpha 3 is any more balanced than Alpha 2 as the Allies are getting nearly all the benefits of the change.  Sea Lion, which was an advatange to the Axis, is now effectively removed and they have nearly nothing in exchange.

I totally agree with you.

Japan’s “advantage” (in quotes because I don’t see it as such) is an NO change so they can pick up any 5 Pacific islands with no value for an NO.  Of course, that means you have to PROTECT them and it means you have to send transports out to GET them, but Larry thinks this is an advantage and since he makes the rules….

[Jennifer]

Page 5:

Larry is considering limiting Major Complexes to a maximum of 12 Damage under the new bombing rules (any damage turns off the complex.)

[Karl7]

So we are not going into round 2 until around Halloween, right?  I assume we will do a new round of bidding?

Also, I have no objection with using alpha 3 or this new SBR rule in round 2, although in my opinion it favors the allies even more than alpha 2.

I have to say, all these changes (some if which are improvements) I don’t think fundamentally alter the basic imbalance with the game, which favors the allies.  The ONLY change I think that would considerably rebalance the game would be to push out the time limit of when the USSR and US can enter the war, say to round 5 and 6 respectively. After all, the USSR wasn’t going to be ready to attack until 42, and the likelyhood of the US entering the war at all was contingent on Axis provocation and not just crossing some made up time limit.

[BigBadBruce]

@Cmdr:

@BigBadBruce:

@Cmdr:

Any dmg shuts down the facility until the facility is repaired. (So no more sitting there with 7 dmg on your Major Complex and building 3 units a round.)

Please could you point out, in Larry’s page where you see such rule? I couldn’t find anything regarding that you have to have 0 DMG on Major IC in order to produce units.

Yes, page 1:

The target is considered inoperable if it receives any hits. It can be repaired by paying 1 IPC for the removal of each chip. This is done during the players next Purchase & Repair phase 1.
The maximum damage a major IC can receive is 20 damage markers. Minor ICs and bases can’t receive more than 6 damage markers each.

Any damage to Major Complexes, Minor Complexes, Naval Bases and/or Air Bases shut down the facility unless repaired to 0 Damage.  He has since added a second option for Major Complexes, but has added the “being considered” disclaimer.  If that becomes official, it is official.

Sorry, I don’t see what you say in that page : http://harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149&sid=e72b40b4cde63e93f165dfa6eb16b97d

So I guess it’s another

Because I should never have discussed proposed changes before they were officially added, so it was my mistake to even introduce them.

[BigBadBruce]

Jenn, Jenn, Jenn… you first talk about AA Gun, then about interceptors… not easy to follow. Is it a real rule of Alpha 3 you’re talkking about now, or another of your wish list?

[Jennifer]

Could you read them rules, please BBB?  Because you are confusing the hell out of people by making unqualified claims and throwing clear rules into doubt.

SBR

Air Battle.
All escorts and bombers (Strategic & Tactical) fires @ 1
Jets fires @ 2

Generated casualties are placed behind the casualty line and will return fire before being eliminated.

Interceptors. fires @ 1
Jet interceptors fires @ 2

All casualties, both sides, are removed.
Surviving escorts retreat.

Bombing Run
Bombers are assigned to targets.
Strategic bombers can be assigned to any target (IC’s, naval bases. airbase).
Tactical bombers can be assigned only to naval bases and airbases.

Each targeted facility fires @ 1, each can fire one time at each bomber that is attacking it.
All casualties at both stages of the raid are chosen by the owners of the units involved.

Bombs Away
Strategic bombers roll a 1d6+2
Tactical bombers roll a 1d6

Damage Report

The damage to the target (hits) is equal to the total number rolled on the die/dice. Place 1 gray chip (damage marker) under the target for each hit scored.

Option #1The target is considered inoperable if it receives any hits. It can be repaired by paying 1 IPC for the removal of each chip. This is done during the players next Purchase & Repair phase 1.
The maximum damage a major IC can receive is 20 damage markers. Minor ICs and bases can’t receive more than 6 damage markers each.

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6491

I don’t think it gets much clearer than that.  I understand you are having issues finding it since you are in a defunct thread.  He started new ones for ISSUES to be fixed, SBR questions and CONVOY questions.  Those are the only three “active” threads atm.

Anyway, yes, it does not matter (currently) if you have 1 dmg on a facility, if you don’t repair it, you cannot use it at all.  It applies to Naval Bases, Air Bases, Minor Factories and Major Factories.  There’s no doubt in his intent, the doubt is only in the issue of balance.

To clarify (and it has been clarified, but to save you time going through pages of posts):  7 Damage to a Major Factory requires 7 repair to use the factory AT ALL.  You cannot just repair enough to place your builds, you either fix it entirely, or it is out of commission.

Convoys:  All warships and planes IN THE SPECIFIC CONVOY SEA ZONE must attack convoys.  For each “hit” one damage is taken.  You “hit” with a three or less. (ie, a 1, 2 or 3.)  Submarines fire two shots, aircraft carriers fire zero shots.  Any fighters or tactical bombers that happen to be on aircraft carriers that are in enemy convoy zones may also roll to see if they do convoy damage.

Dog Fighting Rules:

Interceptors, Bombers and Escorts all fire at 1.  All hits are removed.
AA Guns fire at 1 for each bomber attacking.  All hits are removed.
Tactical Bombers do 1d6 damage to their Air/Naval Base.
Strategic Bombers do 1d6+2 damage to their Air/Naval Base or Minor/Major Complex.

It’s really simple.  There’s no 2’s or things being killed before it can return fire, or anything.  It’s a straight up dogfight now.

[Jennifer]

Convoy Rules:  http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6492

[Jennifer]

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=25073.new#new

There is a copy paste of the new SBR rules and new Convoy Rules.  Last two posts respectively.

The first three posts are a copy of all Alpha 3 core rules to include changes to technology, game board set up, etc, etc, etc.  Basically, all the stuff he posted weeks ago.

[BigBadBruce]

Well, you don’t have an history that gives credibility and having to look at multiple pages/sites is not my defintion of a clear set of rules.

Anyway, Alpha 3 not for me… have fun.

[Jennifer]

2 Votes against, 2 votes for.

(It’s not all that hard to find the rules, I put them all in one thread for you with links to Larry’s actual posts on his page.  If Larry does not have any credibility for you, then maybe you need to go play Risk or Chess, he is the game creator after all.)