G40 Tourney Discussion/question(s)

[BigBadBruce]

I’ll never play Alpha 3, it’s wrong… not as much as OOB tho.
Alpha 2 is, by far, the most balanced game (of AAG40 I mean). I say we should stick to Alpha2.

As proof of this :
1. Bids were from negative (!) to +11 (if it takes only 6to11 IPC worth of units to “fully” balance the game, it’s not much!!)
2. Out of 10 round 1 games so far, 4 won with Axis, 6 by allies (where that 90% come from???)
3. In the 6 allies victory, 3 were won by very quick surrender of axis.

Bottom line, as I always said, Alpha 2 is fairly balanced (like 60-40%) and I challenged anyway who says otherwise.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

If round 2 is the third version, I’ll stay.

I can see this argument as a valid one.  Alpha 3 is the most current incarnation of the rules and it seems funny to play by a old set for whatever reason.

I can see the counter argument as a valid one as well.  Alpha 2 is what we started with, Alpha 3 has at least one major change: AA Guns, and a moderate one (Turn order change).  Otherwise, many of the changes were already included as house rules for the tournament. (AA Guns worth 5, German submarines do 3 dmg, etc.)

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In tournament, yes, it is 4 Axis wins vs 6 Axis losses.  I got my overall statistic screwed up with my tournament one, sorry.  (Over all, of the games on the boards here and abroad, the allies are about 90% wins in Alpha 2.  Of course, players who don’t play at AA.org are just inferior by nature of their cowardace. Yes, it is an elitest attitude, but we are leet!)  Anyway…

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We are going to have to add in a destroyer in SZ 99 to block England from just raping the Italians as a house rule.  Larry is almost certianly putting one in (or switching a cruiser in SZ 98 to Australian).  He’s just trying to figure out if it will destabilize the Med.  Keep in mind, with the AA Gun changes, England does not have to turtle anymore.

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As for your challenge, BBB, you are afriad to continue our game!  How can you challenge anyone?  You’ve been dragging your heels and grasping for straws for days now!  Of course, you did screw up the map (saying you did it on purpose, I think it was a mistake) leading too a little issue which, instead of just taking the original solution, you dragged out for over a day to delay your own game so you didn’t have to do Italy and watch as you went down in the fires of my fighter pilots.

Yea, that’s right, I’m sh*t talkin you.  Throw some dice!

(Yes, Alpha 2 is the most balanced of the four versions in my mind.  But Alpha 3 is the most fun of the four versions.)

[jim010]

As alpha2 is now superceded by alpha3, I don’t see a point in playing it, regardless of balance issues.

[BigBadBruce]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You’re so dishonnest Jenn. Say the plain truth for once.

1. You quit the first game we played. It was to prove your so called All PAC US (as you claim Alpha2 broken) strat was wrong. I was right (again).

2. I took over someone who gave up in your tourney game. Now I’m turning the odds, so you bring your own rules as you see the game slipping. Besides, how can you consider to win twice with the same game (which I wasn’t starting player BTW)

3. You were suppose to let me know when you can afford a rematch. You never called…

4. I’ll start a new game Alpha2 against you ANYTIME! Eventhought I hate playing with you because there is an issue on EVERY turn you play. In fact I have more issue with you alone than all my games together (wich close to be none, since I’m easy going). You twist rules to fit you so often… I have no fun at all.

[BigBadBruce]

@jim010:

As alpha2 is now superceded by alpha3, I don’t see a point in playing it, regardless of balance issues.

The point is Allies will win… not as bad as OOB tho, but what’s the point to plain a game if both players doesn’t have a chance to win? Specially in a tourney.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You’re so dishonnest Jenn. Say the plain truth for once.

1. You quit the first game we played. It was to prove your so called All PAC US (as you claim Alpha2 broken) strat was wrong. I was right (again).
We’re not talking previous games, I’m taunting you about dragging your feet in this one.  You said you could turn it around, you have so far failed to do so, but you are trying valiantly.
2. I took over someone who gave up in your tourney game. Now I’m turning the odds, so you bring your own rules as you see the game slipping. Besides, how can you consider to win twice with the same game (which I wasn’t starting player BTW)
He felt that the game was over.  I agree with you it was early, but neither of us were him.  I don’t think you have the skills to turn it around, but you are more than welcome to try.  However, if you want to try, I suggest you doing Italy’s turn because I can’t get to France until then.
3. You were suppose to let me know when you can afford a rematch. You never called…
We were able to continue because that game slot in my everyday life was already open.  Since there is now Alpha 3 and I dont intend to ever play more Alpha 2s (and my pac strat was undefeated and will remain so I guess since you cant do it in A3 due to the loss of income there) I guess it’s moot.  Maybe we can collaberate on an alpha 3 version one day?  Course, in Alpha 3, I’m usally happy to have the Australians spank the Japanese a little.
4. I’ll start a new game Alpha2 against you ANYTIME! Eventhought I hate playing with you because there is an issue on EVERY turn you play. In fact I have more issue with you alone than all my games together (wich close to be none, since I’m easy going). You twist rules to fit you so often… I have no fun at all.
Says the guy who committed an illegal act and then, when I trusted him and went with it, tried to call me a cheater for it.  You’ve yet to have a full round without a mistake, I had a mistake landing planes (fine that was easy to fix because I left them over newly taken land, and miscollected for India and it was caught before you got to Italy, since you STILL have not gotten to Italy.  You attacked a sea zone and never removed the transports there.  You moved MY units off the island and into the water.  Now I have to go back through and micro manage each of your turns to see what else you might have done wrong (by wrong, I mean in clear and direct violation of the rules.)  Or you can set aside your petty vendetta and get back to the tournament continuation game.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

@jim010:

As alpha2 is now superceded by alpha3, I don’t see a point in playing it, regardless of balance issues.

The point is Allies will win… not as bad as OOB tho, but what’s the point to plain a game if both players doesn’t have a chance to win? Specially in a tourney.

Agreed.  Which is why any alpha 3 game would have to go with either the cruiser swap that Larry is considering or the blocking Destroyer that Larry is considering.  If we go with the destroyer, then (as I told Larry) it should be German so as not to increase the number of Italian units that can be used to attack.  Since it’s there specifically to prevent England from slaughtering the Italians, it probably wont be moved on round 1 anyway.

And yes, the allies seem to win an inordinately high number of games, even in Alpha 2. (but no where near as bad as OOB.)

[BigBadBruce]

Just placing a DD won’t do much IMO. (I guess it would be placed a z96 or z94)
Why?
Because you can destroy it with planes (3 available)… still giving the option for Royal Navy to gather at z92, with attacking planes joining them in NCM.

Besides, in alpha 3 the lost of a plane this way is even less important since England can afford to send planes aways to replace a lost (destroying DD in z92).

OOB : Axis doesn’s stand a chance. I’m posisive to win 100% games with Allies.
Alpha2 : Fairly balanced. I give Axis 40% chance to win, but they most succeed Sea Lion. With a failed Sea Lion (or not attempted at all) I doubt Axis can win.
Alph3 : I can’t put odds now (I didn’t play enough), but if Axis stand a chance, it’s greatly less than in Alpha2.

[jim010]

Can we leave this thread for general discussion of the tournament please you two?

[jim010]

To keep things on topic, I’ll stay with alpha3 and bidding.  Otherwise no.

[Jennifer]

Larry’s idea of a destroyer in SZ 99 is to block the British surface fleet from joining a battle in SZ 97.  Remember, in Alpha 3 one of the Italian destroyers has been moved to SZ 96.  The rationale for the additional warship is because England is now in a position where they can afford to get a “hat trick” taking out all three Italian fleets if Germany does not give up some of their attacks and land planes. (If they do, then England still has great odds at taking out two of the fleets.)

There’s also the change of the British fighter making it a Strategic Bomber that you have to consider here.  It’s all but been put on the rules already.  The turn order was changed, so now Australia and France go together after Italy.  I don’t think it’s enough, but again, if Italy goes before England, Larry had the problem of the SZ 98 fleet being sunk.

Why am I discussing this?  Because if we go with Alpha 3 we will have to make the changes to prevent the Italian fleet from being completely destroyed and thus, leaving Italy as a mere shell of a country, otherwise, Allied odds are going to be unrealistically high.

If it is left to me, it will be a German destroyer.  That way, it can be used as Germany sees fit, or left to block the British.  In essence, the maintenance of the Italian fleet is still in German hands, but now Germany can still conduct the battles they want too.  I am, of course, open to suggestions on how to handle the revised situations.  There was a suggestion to just remove the Airbase from Gibraltar and the naval bases from Egypt and Gibraltar which would, in effect, stop England from many of the attacks. (SZ 91 cruiser cannot get there.  Gibraltar fighter cannot get there.  SZ 98 fleet cannot get to SZ 92 or 93…etc.)  What I like about this is that now you’ll have the British buying these facilities at some point in the game, giving the Axis a freebie SBR essentially.  Free as in they dont actually have to risk their assets to get England to shell out money on units or repairs because the Allies need some of these facilities.

I do see Gibraltar occasionally getting a German naval base, but again, it’s a good thing.

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Right now, I am heavily leaning towards going Alpha 3 with the partners being able to elect to stay Alpha 2.  I am also thinking of Alpha 2 with the partners being able to elect Alpha 3.  Honestly, if I had made up my mind on the situation, I’d just declare by fiat what was going to happen, not ask for advice and concern.  I want feedback from the participants, I don’t want to make any significant changes and end up with someone having hurt feelings and I fear that if you don’t give me feedback and you allow one or two loud voices to make changes, then someone is going to get angry and resentful and even if they dont, I’ll think someone is and I’ll fret over who it might be.

Then again, I’m just a silly girl, maybe I’m making something emotional that does not have to be?  Anyway, better safe than sorry.  Jim votes for Alpha 3, so do I personally.  BBB I think votes for Alpha 2, but I have serious misgivings as to his knowledge of Alpha 3 with the changes made over the past couple of months.  (Becuase he said the destroyer in SZ 94 or SZ 96 specifically and Alpha 3 already has a destroyer in SZ 96 already.  And a transport.  This leads me to believe, and I am not saying it is necessarily true mind you, but it leads me to believe he has not kept up to date on the rules and may have missed all of Alpha 3 since that destroyer has been there since Day 1.)

[BigBadBruce]

Is there a starting map available of Alpha 3?

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

Is there a starting map available of Alpha 3?

I’ll attach an alpha 3 map with only the changes that were released.  After release there have been no actual units added or changed to the board, but there are some being considered for now.

As I said, the focus is on the Med and there are a few different paths being considered:

1)  British cruiser in SZ 98 changed to Australian.
2)  German or Italian destroyer in SZ 99
3)  Removal of the Airbase from Gibraltar, Removal of Naval bases from Egypt/Gibraltar

Obviously, I think he’ll just choose one and not more than one.

Other than that, there are HUMUNGO changes to AA Guns essentially making them actual combat units that one might actually bring to combat!  Some of the technologies changed, but we’ve never had tech be part of our leagues or tournaments here (to my knowledge) so that’s not going to play a factor.  And a couple of the units from Alpha 2 have been moved (thinking the Destroyer/Transport moved to SZ 96, dont think anything else was moved.)

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6149 (link to the rules.)

Alpha 3.AAM

[BigBadBruce]

Indeed I vote for Alpha 2.

Yes I was talking about the “existing Alpha 3”. I was saying that DD doesn’t change much. If an Extra DD is added, then yes it may affect greatly. Oh! and no I was not aware of order changes that occured last week (“last couple month”…  :lol: Alpha3 is barely 1 month old!!)

I did study Alpha 3 when if was posted (on Sept 1st), but didn’t keep the map. I discarded it as most “improvements” helps Allies and, therefore, makes if LESS balanced.

[BigBadBruce]

Oh! thanks for the map Jenn, I was typing when you posted.

[Jennifer]

@BigBadBruce:

Oh! thanks for the map Jenn, I was typing when you posted.

No problem.

Basically, the whole idea of the Destroyer in SZ 99 is because there is one in SZ 96 and thus, SZ 97 couldn’t be attacked by SZ 98 anymore (not with the carrier, cruiser, etc there with the planes yes.)  That means, Germany isn’t locked into driving planes down to Italy.  (No, I freakin refuse to FLY to Italy! Gosh dang it to heck for five minutes!  It’s ITALY, they are not important enough to waste gas on…sheesh.)

[jim010]

Since there is 168 pages worth of posts that I’m not going to be reading, can you post a link to the proposed changes to Alpha3?

And am I right in assuming that there will be a bid should Alpha 3 be adopted?

[Jennifer]

The alpha rules are on page one.  Larry updates them as they change there with updates in green.

There will be a bid.  Whether it is higher, lower or the same is really up to the players.

Alpha 3 will be finallized shortly.  I’d wager before Round 2 of the tournament starts, but that’s not assured.  So they will be the official rules for Axis and Allies, the only question is, if they will be official for the rest of the tournament or not.

[JamesAleman]

So far, I’m not seeing much difference in Strategy with either version. What works in a2 also seems to work in a3 despite the changes if you are focused (example-USSR first is still solid, UK first may still be.I’m not seeing much difference with the allies either-Kill Japan first still works in my opinion). We’ll see if that bares out in my current games. (Japan is not afraid of Mongolia activating, in fact that encourages a Neutral crush in my opinion by the axis based on tactics employed -not for every game-the units the allies get are far flung: S.America, S.Africa, Afganistan: Only Turkey presents problems-Spain increases axis air range and is likely the first target of the axis.)

[BigBadBruce]

James, the difference in that AA now have HP. I mean they can be taken as casualties instead of another other… so UK got 4 more units free. Also Russia will enter war the SAME turn that London falls. Those two things makes Sea Lion more difficult and more risky for Germany. That alone, makes the game (more than Alpha2) unbalanced.

I agree with you on the Japan-Russia front tho. Not giving the 12IPC + having multiple ways to blitz northern Russia (now passing thru Mongolia) is even more tempting for Japan to attack. But this is far from being a game change.

I don’t agree on neutral crush tho. Why would want to crush neutrals? Activate Mongolia on turn 1, then just invade them on following turns (blitz!). No need to active other neutrals…