What Would Happen If Spain Joined The Axis?

[Dylan the Canadian]

What do you think would happen if the Spanish joined with the Axis?

[CWO Marc]

Maybe not much.  Spain was still recovering from the Spanish Civil War and wasn’t in a good position to fight another war.  On other hand, this would have created the possibly of Germany launching an overland attack against Gibraltar (assuming Vichy France could be persuaded to give German troops permission to traverse it when going from Occupied France to Spain).  A German occupation of Gibraltar, and the possible resulting Italo-German control of the Straights of Gibraltar, would have made Britain’s position in the Mediterranean more difficult.

[ABWorsham4]

@Dylan:

What do you think would happen if the Spanish joined with the Axis?

Look at a poll I post a few years ago, concerning which country would have been an better German Ally, Turkey or Spain. The topic is discussed in that post.

[ABWorsham4]

CWO Marc is correct about Spain rebulding from the Civil War. Spain entering the War with the Axis powers would have some benifits for the Axis as well as the Allies.

Axis advantages.
1. more ports to launch U-Boats and surface raiders
2. the addition of several first class cruisers to the Axis navies.
3. control of the Western Mediterranean and Gibraltar.
4. an ally with strong grudges with the U.S.S.R

Allied advantages.
1. one more weak ally for Germany to support with grain and oil.
2. another german ally weak in heavy equipment
3. Spain has over 1,000 miles of coastline to defend as well as territories in Africa.

[FieldMarshalGames]

I think Spain was more useful to the Axis as an aligned-Neutral.  Militarily Spain was weak at the time, and politically there were still divisions.  The wounds of the Civil war were too fresh at the time.

Spain gave Italy and Germany access to international markets and commodities that were not available to them via the Allied Blockade.

[crusaderiv]

Spain was in ruin economically and militarily.
Franco would never declare war to the allies.
Even with a defeat of the Russian forces in 1941.

[Zooey72]

England would have fallen.

Follow the logic…

Spain joins --> Gibralter falls
Gibralter falls --> Suez Canal falls (and Malta for that matter)
Suez Canal falls --> India falls.

Those losses would have brought England to its knees.  In addition to this the loss of Suez would have exposed the caucus oil fields from the South.

I personaly think the Spanish staying netrual is a huge reason Germany lost.

[crusaderiv]

I personaly think the Spanish staying netrual is a huge reason Germany lost.

I don’t agree.
If spain declared war to the allies, only after a few months and spain fall under allies control.
Spain is too hard to defend.
Can be invaded by south, east and west.
Franco was afraid that his country undergoes a maritime blockade. His army would not have been able to survive for a long time and his government would have fallen because the people would have rebelled. Spain had just lived 3 years of civil war so he did well to stay away from war and anyway Germans did not need a him.

[Zooey72]

_I personaly think the Spanish staying netrual is a huge reason Germany lost.

I don’t agree.
If spain declared war to the allies, only after a few months and spain fall under allies control.
Spain is too hard to defend.
Can be invaded by south, east and west.
Franco was afraid that his country undergoes a maritime blockade. His army would not have been able to survive for a long time and his government would have fallen because the people would have rebelled. Spain had just lived 3 years of civil war so he did well to stay away from war and anyway Germans did not need a him._

Sorry, but none of this has basis in fact, except maybe that it could be invaded on multiple sides… but that is as much a consideration as saying Germany could have invaded Scotland

First, there were no “allies”, there was only an “ally” in 40 - and that was England which was being bombed to death by the Germans.  England was doing all it could to stop the Germans from invading them - they weren’t going into Spain or anywhere else.  Spain (with probably German and Italian reiforcements) would have easily taken Gibralter.

Second, Spain is a fortress.  If you look at the Geography it is mostly mountains.

Third, yes, Spain would have been blockaded.  But that is not why they would not have gone to war.  The British would have been further crippled by having to spread thier Navy even thinner than it already was trying to blockade Spain.  After the fall of France they couldn’t keep the coast from Norway to France adequetaly covered, throwing Spain in there would have overwhelmed them.

Franco didn’t join the war because he didn’t think he got enough of France to warrant it.  If Hitler had given him more when France fell, he would have joined.  The communist opposition in the country was purged when Franco won.

And Germany did ‘need’ them for the reasons I already stated

[crusaderiv]

Sorry, but none of this has basis in fact, except maybe that it could be invaded on multiple sides… but that is as much a consideration as saying Germany could have invaded Scotland

You should read books about World war II.
You’re going to understand that your points have no sens.

September 4th, 1939, Franco declared the strict neutrality.
Diplomatic relations between Spain and UK were always good.
In fact, Churchill sent Samuel Hoare (which is one of best UK diplomats) to convince Franco to stay outside the war.

On October 23rd, 1040, Hitler meets Franco. He offers him Gibraltar and some non determinated French territories of Africa but Franco stay quiet.
Because he does not want enter the war. His arguments? Food shortages, military weakness, no heavy artillery, Canary Islands impossible to defend.
After the meeting, he asserts to Ribbentrop. Franco is " a nasty thankless "
He also asserts that he would like better be extrated 4 teeth rather than to see Franco again.
All that Hitler obtains it’s the division Azul send on the esatern front.

Spain and Turkey would never have joined the Axis except if UK and/or USSR would have unconditionally surrendered.
So read carefully about Franco and good luck.

[Zooey72]

The best chance Hitler had to convince Franco to enter the war was in 40 when France fell.  You seem to forget, England stood alone.  Do you honestly think it would have wasted troops taking the canary islands that serve little if any strategic value (England could barely defend itself, and if Hitler had waited on attacking Russia for a year and focused on England they probably would have been invaded).  Did Franco bitch and moan about it, yes - that is what negotiating is.  He wanted more than what Hitler was willing to give for Spain to enter the war.

England did not have a good relationship with Spain.  I would compare that relationship to the US and Iran - yes, we aren’t killing each other but I would hardly call that a good relationship.

Hitler tried to bribe Franco and the bribe was not large enough.  That is why Spain did not enter the war.  Take all ethics out of the argument (because we are talking about the Nazis and a opressive dictator) I agree with Hitler.  Franco was acting like an ass.  If not for his support he would not be in power… kind of like Franco owed him one and didn’t pay up.

Looking at it from Franco’s perspective, Franco wanted parts of France and Hitler did not want to give it to him.  If they are not going to get parts of France, than what would he get from joining a war with Germany?  Any conquests of note would go to the Germans/Italians.  As in every war it was fought over $.  It was not in Franco’s best intrest to join the war.

Hmmmm.  This just gave me an idea for a new thread

[crusaderiv]

The best chance Hitler had to convince Franco to enter the war was in 40 when France fell.
Yes…but heaven with that Franco said no.

_Do you honestly think it would have wasted troops taking the canary islands that serve little if any strategic value (England could barely defend itself, and if Hitler had waited on attacking Russia for a year and focused on England they probably would have been invaded). _

Yes I think because Canaries island would have been easily fall under UK control but worst, it would have been a strategic lost for Kriegmarine.
Uk would have acces to the middle of the Atlantic. A bad news for the U-Boat and give a better protection to cargos.

England did not have a good relationship with Spain.  I would compare that relationship to the US and Iran - yes, we aren’t killing each other but I would hardly call that a good relationship.
Sorry but you’re wrong. Of course it was not a real friendship relation but both konws the importance to talk.

Looking at it from Franco’s perspective, Franco wanted parts of France and Hitler did not want to give it to him.
No Franco wants Gibralter, Morroco and French catalogna but Hitler plan was to annexe Vichy and the southern France in 1942 and Hitler had to meet petain after the Franco meeting so it was not in the interest of Hitler to give to Franco parts of Vichy territory and see Vichy changing camp.

Hmmmm.  This just gave me an idea for a new thread
Good, it’s always interresting to discuss.