@Imperious:
but I don’t remember them being exorbitant
In that game (where i was a play-tester and worked on the map), Bombers are very pricy and seldom bought. The player who is cash rich and needs something to attack and sink a navy will buy them. This is only the US player and seldom any other player except sometimes the UK player who cant buy a fleet because it will be sunk.
They average about 30 IPC ( compared to 5 for infantry and 11-14 for a tank). IN that game they are not used for SBR, but for killing navy with subs as fodder.
Well, that makes them 6x the price of infantry rather than 5x like the original MB version (and remember that the nations had roughly twice the IPC values as in AA, so the sticker shock should be mitigated due to the general TWG “inflation” of all units.) I’d say that 5x is about right… maybe even reduce them to 4x infantry to make them more attractive to buy. I know that even at that rate more pragmatic players rarely buy pricey units (I know that I treat all high-value units, even tanks, like gold, and rarely buy many more than I’m initially given… but I also use the games I design partly as a way to teach students about military history and I’m hardly an ace “tournament” player like you, Imperious…)
So at 5x and assuming TWG is balanced after 21 years of play ( it originated in 1990), to extrapolate the bomber in cost with the infantry being 3 IPC makes the bomber like 15-18IPC if it was introduced in AA, so you can see that such a unit would not be replaced often.
What I miss is a selfpropelled Artillery piece.
We got 2 kinds of infantry, 2 kinds of tanks, 2 kinds of fighters, but only one King of the Battlefield.
Selfpropelled artillery, cost 5 IPC, move 2, attack 2 and def 2 and boost one matching infantry.
The inf/art combo cost 7 IPC and move 1 space.
The Mech/Sp.Art combo cost 9 IPC and move 2 spaces.
Tank/Mech cost 10 IPC and attack with 4 pips.
Sp.Art/Mech cost 9 IPC and attack with 4 pips.
Nobody will buy tanks anymore ?
Unless the Blitz- rule says tanks, and tanks only, may move one additional space after combat in the first place. Then tanks could retreat and hide in a friendly terr (superior strafe attack unit) or blitz into next enemy terr.
Anyway, the Selfpropelleds sure look good:
@Imperious:
So at 5x and assuming TWG is balanced after 21 years of play ( it originated in 1990), to extrapolate the bomber in cost with the infantry being 3 IPC makes the bomber like 15-18IPC if it was introduced in AA, so you can see that such a unit would not be replaced often.
Which is exactly what it was in the original MB edition…
Which is exactly what it was in the original MB edition…
And why seldom players bought that unit and why it was ultimately dropped in cost.
So the combat values need to drop or something else because thats what a 4x2 unit might cost in this game and that makes it not much of a replacement due to this great cost.
any comments on the Selfproppeled ?
Why would you spend money on a tank mech combo when a spa mech combo is the same attack and same speed?
@i:
Why would you spend money on a tank mech combo when a spa mech combo is the same attack and same speed?
Like I said, Tanks should be able to move one more space after finishing combat in the first terr.
You can strafe attack a terr and kill the one enemy inf, then your inf must stay, but your tanks may retreat to a friendly space. Now the tank is a superior strafe attack unit, better than fighters.
Or you can make a major attack against a huge enemy inf-stack, and after you won the combat, your tank-stack may blitz into the next enemy terr, to a second combat. After all the Blitzkrieg doctrine with breakthoroughs and exploitations was based on tanks, because tanks got better mobility and speed than the slow inf and art.
Now both Mech inf, selfpropelled art and tanks all move two spaces, and have equal firepower, but the tanks are more versatile. So you need inf and art for the main assault, and tanks for flank protection. After all that is what cavallery was made for in the first place, man.
I think all the combo boost thing has lost its tarnish. I think it just slows down the game dealing with all these ‘extra spices combos’
@Imperious:
I think all the combo boost thing has lost its tarnish. I think it just slows down the game dealing with all these ‘extra spices combos’
I cant belive this is comin from the inventor of Advanced A&A.
Now I need a cold bear.
I have many years with all these various combo boosts and i find that players find all these special attack and defense bonuses cumbersome.
Tanks should boost infantry/mech and thats pretty much it.
Artillery should not boost anything
fighters should not boost fighter bombers, etc.
I agree with what you are saying except with artillery. In WWII artillery was more demoralizing and destroyed morale than it was lethal. Infantry with artillery at its side is a total moral booster. In a D6 system a +1 is a bit much, but in a D12 +1 is a good booster. I think a worthy booster. Tanks and artillery are the only 2 though! IMO
WWII had artillery duels where opposing sides saturated each other, but the mobility feature of warfare made the lethality of this tactic much less damaging than in say The Great War.
Only in WW1 did artillery really become the focal point of the attack, it was replaced with mobile tanks and half-tracks, which replaced this impact on the battlefields. Artillery became just the opening salvo of the attack or fire support for some focal point where the defenders were entrenched but this was less common.
So again tanks should maintain any boosts in combat because they are the primary land war making weapon in WW2, not artillery.
You are correct as always, but you dont tell the whole story. Tanks was the most successfull unit when attacking, yes, and that was because they could easily breakthrough the enemy lines, exploit the new situation and backstabb the defenders. This type of warfare produced less casualties than the artillery barrages, because the defenders surrendered fast when encircled by tanks, compared to dug-in defenders that was annhilated by artillery barrage.
During WW II:
65 % of the casualties was killed by artillery shells.
15 % was killed by small infantry weapons.
10 % was killed by tanks.
10 % was killed by planes.
There was a reason they kept producing artillery during WW II, even if they got tanks. The artillery was the cheapest way to kill enemies, because a Tank cost three times as much to make.
I agree with you this “boost” thing just clutter the game. It will make for a cleaner game if all units have a set value that dont change with modifiers.
Inf, or Mech, dont need a boost in attack, because their main object was to secure and defend the other arms.
In WW I the idea was that artillery should kill the enemy, and the infantry should move in and take control of the terr.
In WW II the idea was that tanks should break through the enemy line, and Mech’s should follow to protect the tanks from enemy infantry.
In both wars, the artillery was more successful during defense, and that should be recognised in the combat value.
I suggest:
Inf att 1, def 2 and move 1
Mech att 1, def 2 and move 2
They get no boost from other units, because infantry divisions already got inherent artillery and engineer support.
Artillery att 2, def 3 and move 1. Basically a defense weapon.
Tanks att 3, def 3 and move 2. Basically a Blitzkrieg weapon, so it should be able to one additional move after combat in the first territory. It should be allowed to retreat back to friendly territory after a strafe attack where the surviving infantry are stuck, or it should be allowed to continue attacking next enemy territory.
I like Artillery being Att 2, Def 3 and Move 1. But what about their cost?
What are you like, mate? What’s all this about spurs? :?
We are talking about unit Att/Def values.
I think its a game report, and he propably want you to send him money too.
Hi
This is how I would use the new Units that comes with the FMG pieces.
Generals : gives all units +1 first round in both attack and defense. Defender/casualties cannot fire back unless the defender also got a General. Generals can move both in CM and NCM, and have a movement of 4 (because generals moves by airplanes)
Truck : a transport piece. Can be used to transport up to two regular infantry, up to three spaces/aereas. Trucks do not attack, but defend on a one.
Another option for Trucks is to use them as Motorized Infantry and give them a movement of +1
Selfpropeled Artillery : Get a movement of only one. They where big and heavy. With a movement of two I feel they will be to strong. No one will buy Tanks anymore.
.
use SPA’s as the current atry and have arts as heavys….ie can attack 1 ajacent zone…cannot attack if beeing attaked…ect
