• the bombardment isnt very valuable, i’d rather spend 1 extra IPC and build a transport and 2 infantry or a transport and an artillery and save 1 ipc.  For cracking the continent its better to buy troops.  If cruisers cost 11 i still wouldnt build them, probably not even at 10, but i’d sure think about it at 10.


  • I agree, the troops and transport are much more useful. And if I need to go a distance, those 12 points buy a bomber.

    I’d really like to be able to buy cruisers, but it never makes any sense to do so.


  • I’m sensing a change in Alpha rules.  That AA one maybe


  • @Zallomallo:

    I’m sensing a change in Alpha rules.  That AA one maybe

    I’m sure there will be as many changes as there were between OOB and Alpha2.

    Cruisers are a luxury unit with very narrow application, but I would definitely stop short of saying I would never buy them.


  • @JayDavis:

    I agree, the troops and transport are much more useful. And if I need to go a distance, those 12 points buy a bomber.

    I’d really like to be able to buy cruisers, but it never makes any sense to do so.

    Well - I’ll continue to put them into the mix of my double hit fleet where they do quite well. It has so far helped me when I needed to either create naval dominance or upset a naval balance.
    In a double hit fleet, the battleships take the first hit, the cruisers 3 dice would survive multiple rounds anyway. Usually works quite well.


  • a cruiser or 2 make a large fleet look good  :mrgreen:


  • I see the cruiser’s aa gun as a idea for tech, not a default ability

    I don’t like cruisers at 10 IPCs. It would make them better blockers than dd, even counting the submarine strikes. One has to count the multiple targets tactic (very useful in Pacific Ocean): one could mix dds and cruisers (at different SZs) as blockers, probably making impossible for the attacker to kill all of them. You have to send more punch to kill a 3/3 blocker than to kill a 2/2 blocker, and the attaker usually will lose more units in the trade

    I still think that many people continue thinking with a Classic (or Annyv.) mentality. Cost is only one factor when buying a unit


  • @Funcioneta:

    I see the cruiser’s aa gun as a idea for tech, not a default ability

    I don’t like cruisers at 10 IPCs. It would make them better blockers than dd, even counting the submarine strikes. One has to count the multiple targets tactic (very useful in Pacific Ocean): one could mix dds and cruisers (at different SZs) as blockers, probably making impossible for the attacker to kill all of them. You have to send more punch to kill a 3/3 blocker than to kill a 2/2 blocker, and the attaker usually will lose more units in the trade

    I still think that many people continue thinking with a Classic (or Annyv.) mentality. Cost is only one factor when buying a unit

    Amen to that.

    If you don’t think you should ever buy a cruiser for 12, then don’t buy them.


  • The application is too narrow imo.  If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser.  Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.


  • @Zallomallo:

    The application is too narrow imo.  If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser.  Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.

    Exactly.


  • @Zallomallo:

    The application is too narrow imo.  If they were brought down to 11, I bet more people would actually think between a destroyer and a cruiser.  Right now they are only a filler when you have 9-19 left over for ships.

    Can’t say I agree. I think they are a great supremacy unit with their 3/3. As said they do not stand alone, but I think they belong in any naval force if wanting to create naval dominace


  • @Alsch91:

    But you’re not providing any reason.

    For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers.  Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense.  But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give.  And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser. 
    So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior.  I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously.  But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.

    I did earlier in the thread.
    When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).

    Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).


  • @Xandax:

    @Alsch91:

    But you’re not providing any reason.

    For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers.  Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense.  But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give.  And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser. 
    So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior.  I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously.  But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.

    I did earlier in the thread.
    When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).

    Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).

    Well I think they’re about the same in cost/attack/defence ratios as destroyers, but they take less hits.


  • @Zallomallo:

    @Xandax:

    @Alsch91:

    But you’re not providing any reason.

    For 24 IPCs I can buy 2 cruisers or 3 destroyers.  Both of these options provide a total of 6 points on offense and 6 points on defense.  But three destroyers gives me 3 hits instead of the 2 that the cruisers give.  And after one hit, 2 destroyers are superior to 1 cruiser. 
    So simply by the numbers, destoyers are superior.  I am disregarding their bombard capabilities, obviously.  But cruisers do not nullify subs’ abilities, so take that as you will.

    I did earlier in the thread.
    When coupled with 2 hit capital ships the 3 value of the cruiser is IMO superior to a 2 value of a destroyer for a cost/effective ratio. As said (many times) - the cruiser does not stand alone, it is part of a fleet. If looking at just one cruiser versus a destroyer - sure - but then a ship is mainly fodder/blocker as well. But as part of a fleet (with double hit capital ships) then the stack-ability of a 3 attack value comes to light when packing a punch on the first 1 or 2 rounds of combat and will help you weed out the enemy fast(er).

    Plus the anti-sub ability is solved with 1 destroyer per stack, but the bombing ability is enhanced with multiple cruisers (if having enough troops of course).

    Well I think they’re about the same in cost/attack/defence ratios as destroyers, but they take less hits.

    It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.


  • @Xandax:

    It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.

    Just not getting it, are we?

    Please reread what Alsch91 wrote. No matter how you group them, DDs are better.


  • @JayDavis:

    @Xandax:

    It’s way easier to roll 1,2 or 3 than 1 or 2.

    Just not getting it, are we?

    Please reread what Alsch91 wrote. No matter how you group them, DDs are better.

    Just not getting it, are you?  DDs are more efficient for naval and air combat only.  DDs are completely worthless once your fleet is safe from air attack and your opponent is not buying any boats.  Worthless!  As are subs.

    In global now, the Axis are trying to dominate one theater and take a bunch of victory cities.  Once you have established fleet dominance in an area (say around Australia, for example) the destroyers are worthless.  The application for cruisers is very narrow.  But they do have their narrow niche.  If you guys think they’re a waste, don’t buy them.  What are you trying to do, get the rules to change?  If you are, you’re on the wrong site.


  • I think you should only buy cruisers if you can’t afford a battleship or 2 subs…


  • @soldaatvanoranje:

    I think you should only buy cruisers if you can’t afford a battleship or 2 subs…

    well, 2 subs is 1 cruiser…

    (or a bomber)

    edit: i found the brittish cruisers in the indian ocean useful in supporting the few african troops there. Don’t think i’d buy more of them, though, maybe(as allies) later in the game when it is time for amphibious attacks.


  • @mantlefan:

    OK. How common are those situations? When Japan or US in the pac are wiped out? When Germany is ready to land on Leningrad after the Russians have already abandoned it?

    I agree.  Not common.  Why didn’t you quote the part where I said cruisers have a limited niche?

    The only power that I get good use out of cruisers with is Italy, and that’s because they start out with them.

    Yes, and they’re really nice units, aren’t they?

    Saying they are good in situation A doesn’t make them good on a relevant scale when situation A comes about mostly after any use of situation A coming about has any real effect on the game.

    I think I almost know what you’re trying to say here, but it’s just not quite making sense…  I think you need better sentence structure.

    I don’t see why telling people not to buy them if they don’t like them is helpful with a discussion of them being good buys or not.

    Wasn’t trying to help with that comment, you’re right.  That’s just evidence of a little frustration of this same old topic coming up again and again.  My point is, what is the point of dissing cruisers?  Just don’t buy them!  Everybody knows destroyers are more efficient and generally more effective in the more common air and naval defense, and naval attack, and sub blocking, and sub destroying.  But that doesn’t mean destroyers are always the best buy over cruisers.  Always is a strong word.  That’s my only point.  I rarely buy cruisers, because I like to win.  :-)

    However, there are things to consider between the differences between cruisers and destroyers.  I’ve listed several before, but here’s one I don’t usually cite.  If you don’t have a destroyer, then you can’t hit enemy subs with air power.  This can be a really good strategy, to not take destroyers into a naval battle if the enemy has a bunch of subs and surface ships, and you have a bunch of air power.

    Example:

    You have 5 fighters and 5 bombers, 5 subs, and either 5 destroyers or 3 cruisers.
    You are looking to attack 8 subs, 3 destroyers, 2 carriers, and 4 fighters.

    If you have the cruisers instead of the destroyers, then in the first round all of your air hits must be applied to non-subs.  Subs defend on a 1 and are cheap, so you don’t want your air hits applied to them.  His sub hits (one or 2 probably) can be applied to your subs.  So you see, in this type of battle (not terribly uncommon) cruisers would be better to have then destroyers.

    There are so many situations and differences between destroyers and cruisers and subs, that you shouldn’t just come up with some magical formula like “never buy cruisers”.
    And I still stand by my point that when there isn’t an air or naval threat on your fleet, and no fleet in range to attack that destroyers and subs are at that time completely worthless.  But cruisers may be used to bombard.  It’s a little like when you have bombers.  When there are no good conventional military targets to attack, your bombers can go Strat bomb raid.  Your fighters can do nothing but sit there and look pretty.  So cruisers do have applications when they are not defending your fleet or attacking another fleet - they can bombard, and for the cost they pack the most power for bombardment.

    In various cruiser discussions that keep popping up (because the number crunchers keep looking at 8 IPC vs. 12 IPC and 2A2D vs 3A3D and saying therefore, that destroyers are vastly superior) I don’t know how many different reasons and examples I’ve come up with for why cruisers can be better than destroyers, but it’s quite a few.  But if you don’t understand these reasons or are stubborn about your brilliant math involving 8 vs 12 and 2 vs 3, then it’s your loss, and I am just saying fine, never buy cruisers, you know?


  • It can be advantageous also, to not have any destroyers in your fleet for defense.  The fighters on your carriers will take out non-sub casualties.  If your opponent has high-dollar high-attack units like battleships or bombers or carriers and a lot of subs, having a destroyer in your fleet can be a great detriment.  No such problem with other boats, including cruisers.  And again, the cruiser can bombard when it’s your turn to go on offense, while the subs cannot (in anticipation of the argument that then you should build 2 subs instead of a cruiser).

    As another player pointed out also, higher quality units like cruisers roll more times than destroyers or subs that roll once and then are lost in the first round.  It’s why I like to leave a tank or a plane on defense with an infantry stack.  That 3 or 4 may get to roll several times.  Also, if they are trying to do a hit and run and they don’t want to take the territory (or sea zone) then you are left with your best unit….  etc. etc.

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