Blitz is just a name for a first move “into a hostile, unoccupied territory”. Page 27 of the pac rulebook. Since your first move isn’t into a hostile territory, its not a blitz, Mr. Pain is correct, I believe.
Huge Russian Stack of Infantry Problem
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A big part of the problem is that infantry defend at a 2 and tanks attack at a 3, so it takes about 8 tanks to match 10 infantry in a fight (infantry soak up hits better than tanks). If you consider the fact that russia is probably going to have 30+ normal income for at least 3 turns (plus the the lend/lease NO for a few turns after that, depending on when Germany attacks), Russia can build 10 infantry in Moscow for probably five turns. This means that Germany has to match that with 8 tanks or 48 IPCs EVERY turn. Not to mention that Russia builds their infantry in Moscow and Germany builds its tanks in Berlin a couple turns away. Maybe on turn four or five Germany can build in Ukraine or Leningrad/Stalingrad, but even then the tanks aren’t within striking distance of Moscow.
Some of you have said to just go around Moscow and soak up territory, except Russia can block you with one infantry every step of the way. Even if Italy takes out that one infantry, only tanks and mech can blitz, so Germany will have left all the original infantry and art. behind. A stack of tanks with only a handful of mech for fodder is going to get ripped to shreds. And where is Italy getting the units to send to the eastern front? They start out broke and have to spend all their money in the med just to get any NOs. Furthermore, even if Germany can grab all this territory, Britain and the USA are going to be landing a dozen units or so every turn in Europe past turn five or six. Most of Germany’s newly gained money is going to be spent fending off the allies in Europe.
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Welcome to the boards, Mark, and good post.
I agree, the quandary Germany is in, is that she doesn’t have much time to take Moscow, and Moscow is very deep and easy to defend. Russia has a lot of money. Actually Russia starts with 37 or 38, and will collect this again once or twice at least.
If my life depended on a single game of Global 1940 with no bid and Alpha2 setup, I would absolutely take the Allies without a moment’s hesitation. It will be interesting to see what Larry comes up with, for a hopefully final product, hopefully before Europe 1940 is a year old! Alpha 2 took big steps in the right direction, but more of Larry and friends’ brilliant tweaks are needed.
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Some of you have said to just go around Moscow and soak up territory, except Russia can block you with one infantry every step of the way. Even if Italy takes out that one infantry, only tanks and mech can blitz, so Germany will have left all the original infantry and art. behind. A stack of tanks with only a handful of mech for fodder is going to get ripped to shreds. And where is Italy getting the units to send to the eastern front? They start out broke and have to spend all their money in the med just to get any NOs. Furthermore, even if Germany can grab all this territory, Britain and the USA are going to be landing a dozen units or so every turn in Europe past turn five or six. Most of Germany’s newly gained money is going to be spent fending off the allies in Europe.
If the Allied can throw “dozen” of units into Europe by round 5-6 the Axis would have lost without a turtling Moscow as well because that would mean Japan is contained or destroyed and the board is effectively lost for Axis.
Anyways:Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.
Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.
The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.
Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)
Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.Now - I’m not saying it is easy to take out a turtleling Moscow. It’s not easy taking any turtleling field due to the speed the Axis must put up to counter the Allied money maker aka USA, but even the Allies can’t be everywhere on the board either.
The reasoning behind “ignoring” Moscow and taking other land is that with a smaller economy you can whittle away at that stack of infantry faster than they can rebuild it.
So instead of spending 48 IPCs every turn, spend 36 and throw 6 tanks into Moscow every turn while using the remainder IPC keeping the Allies out of Western Europe.Nobody said it was easy to remove a stack of 50+ defending infantry. But the issue isn’t that a stack of 50+ infantry can be made and is difficult to take with their 2 defence value. The infantry 2 defence is not a problem and the 3 attack of tanks neither IMO.
It is that time is of so much a factor due to the USA’s economy and ability to focus - that strategy and tactics on both sides of the board is much more limited as a result in the game. -
The Russian turtling strategy is tough… while I think that it can eventually be overcome in a long game, it basically takes a quick European victory off the table for the Axis.
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“Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.”
Scramble your fighters west of London when Germany attacks; Save the transport/maybe the destroyer. Make sure to save your fighters. Move whatever forces you have left to Canada. Build your ships in Canada for a few turns. Move up to the SZ west of London and build more ships there. Use your fighters as a deterrent because they can scramble. Have a few US warships join this squadron at the same time they move to off the coast of London. A threatened Sealion complicates this, but the infantry that will be built to defend London can be used for amphibious assaults later on. Paired with the three/four fighters that were saved, its a pretty powerful landing force.“Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.”
If they ignore Egypt/clearing the med. If they spend the time and money going into Egypt, it’s going to be fairly late in the game by the time they get any sizable force through the Middle East and into Russia.“The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.”
With all of America’s money and two rounds of building before war, surely America can spare two/three transports a turn and a warship or two (since they already have a warship in the Atlantic).“Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)”
Fortify Leningrad from an attack from the sea. When Germany attacks by land just move all those units back to Moscow via Archangel. If Germany attacks G2 make sure they can’t hit you by sea. If they hit you over land on G2 all they have is their starting units and 5 newly built tanks. As long as you keep Leningrad fortified, Germany can’t hit you G2 with any real force.“Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.”
They have 18 infantry to contend with. They can take a handful of territories in the far east, but doing so gives Russia a 12 IPC bonus. It will take 2 turns of income before it pays off. If Japan only takes a handful of Russian territories, it won’t make a difference until later in the game. Additionally, Japan needs land units to go into China. So any units that are used to take and hold Russian territory aren’t being used to fight the Chinese. If Japan tries to march through Russia, Russia can move one step back every turn. This will lose money for Russia, but Japan will have tied down a large number of forces allowing the Pacific Allies a chance to gain momentum. -
“Britain can be taken out of the game or just contained.”
Scramble your fighters west of London when Germany attacks; Save the transport/maybe the destroyer. Make sure to save your fighters. Move whatever forces you have left to Canada. Build your ships in Canada for a few turns. Move up to the SZ west of London and build more ships there. Use your fighters as a deterrent because they can scramble. Have a few US warships join this squadron at the same time they move to off the coast of London. A threatened Sealion complicates this, but the infantry that will be built to defend London can be used for amphibious assaults later on. Paired with the three/four fighters that were saved, its a pretty powerful landing force.You can still do sealion - it happens in some games.
“Italy can move into Russia via the Middle East.”
If they ignore Egypt/clearing the med. If they spend the time and money going into Egypt, it’s going to be fairly late in the game by the time they get any sizable force through the Middle East and into Russia.You do not need a sizeable force to move through Syria, take Iraq and throw up a small IC, and it doesn’t need to take many troops away from Egypt/Africa. Italy isn’t going to take Moscow, but they can supply units to help and they can help removing USSR income.
“The USA could be kept busy by Japan in the Pacific.”
With all of America’s money and two rounds of building before war, surely America can spare two/three transports a turn and a warship or two (since they already have a warship in the Atlantic).And that’s 30 plus IPC of units per turn not used to contain Japan, giving them a larger chance to mess around.
The US splitting focus gives the Axis a better chance.“Germany can push for a G2 assault on Leningrad (especially if turteling)”
Fortify Leningrad from an attack from the sea. When Germany attacks by land just move all those units back to Moscow via Archangel. If Germany attacks G2 make sure they can’t hit you by sea. If they hit you over land on G2 all they have is their starting units and 5 newly built tanks. As long as you keep Leningrad fortified, Germany can’t hit you G2 with any real force.And that’s unit not used to reinforce Moscow.
Hence the “huge stack” problem got smaller.“Japan can move into Russia to also eat away of those 1 IPC zones.”
They have 18 infantry to contend with. They can take a handful of territories in the far east, but doing so gives Russia a 12 IPC bonus. It will take 2 turns of income before it pays off. If Japan only takes a handful of Russian territories, it won’t make a difference until later in the game. Additionally, Japan needs land units to go into China. So any units that are used to take and hold Russian territory aren’t being used to fight the Chinese. If Japan tries to march through Russia, Russia can move one step back every turn. This will lose money for Russia, but Japan will have tied down a large number of forces allowing the Pacific Allies a chance to gain momentum.And with less American focus, that’s free Japanese units used to tie up Russian troops not used to fortify Moscow.
Now - we all (mostly) know that this game is difficult for the Axis, and it is easy to sit here to think up “Oh, Then the allies do X and the Axis need to do Y”, which really isn’t the point.
However - fact of the matter is that this game will not be improved by making it faster. And thinking a “huge USSR infantry stack” is the problem or “Moscow is too far away” is a problem, is ignoring the real problem, because it is only a symptom.
It is a symptom of the fact that the Axis have to move fast. They’re forced to. They have no choice and no other strategy. Either take London fast or take Moscow fast or you’ve lost Europe.
The turtle strategy is - if time wasn’t an issue - a really bad strategy, because it’s purely defensive. So the reason why it is so effective is that it can delay Germany long enough that the USA can kill of Japan and focus fully on Europe afterwards. And that’s the problem. That the US economy is so large it can focus fully on one theatre of conflict, ignoring the other, because time is on it’s side.
If Moscow falls faster, then the game will be shorter and we’ll have even less strategic choices when playing Axis and most all games will be similar. -
Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
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Yes, the Axis have to move fast if their goal is to take down Russia. The problem is that they aren’t capable of moving fast. Leningrad can be fortified to prevent a naval G2 attack and a land G2 attack is going to be extremely difficult. On turn 3 Russia can just move their forces out. That’s part of the issue; If Russia always keeps its forces one move away from Germany with an infantry in between, they can amass a huge force. Germany is stuck moving one space at a time. Even if you send Japan and Italy against Russia they can’t move very quickly. Italy can’t get to Iraq until I2, build an IC until I3, build units until I4, and if Britain liberated the persian extra units and merged them with just a few Russian units in North Persia, Italy might not be able to attack Russia until late game. The same issue occurs with Japan, even if Japan invades Russia and tries to take up as much money as possible, the Russian stack can move one space away all game long. Sure, Russia loses some money, but Japan is going to struggle to effectively fight anyone else.
Bottom line, I’ve played multiple games as the Soviet Union where I didn’t let anyone attack my units except an infantry I left as a road block. Even when Japan invades Russia turn one/two and tries to keep pushing, it still didn’t make much difference because they can only take a territory a turn. So when Germany finally reaches Moscow, almost every single unit I’ve built as Russia is there defending my capital. Sure, if time weren’t a factor, it’s a bad strategy, but I know that the Allies are going to be landing in force by turn 5 or so, so the Axis is not able to deal with the Allied pressure and overcome a huge Moscow stack.
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Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
Can’t the Italians strike the Battleship with fighters?
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Leningrad is always safe from the Baltic invasion when Germany attacks because you have placed your bb to block right? So the only invasion threat would be from the Arctic. If UK is still alive they should be able to help defend this route, and at the very least could throw in ftrs to help in defense. Its only after that bb dies that Russia has to worry about the Baltic coast.
Can’t the Italians strike the Battleship with fighters?
Germany could do it more easily. And Germany could destroy the battleship and do an amphibious landing in the same turn, I think.
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Germany could do it more easily. And Germany could destroy the battleship and do an amphibious landing in the same turn, I think.
Not if the battleship is in 114 and the Germans are west of that, which is what I thought your situation probably was…
Wait - looks like JimmyHat, not you.
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Germany could do it more easily. And Germany could destroy the battleship and do an amphibious landing in the same turn, I think.
Not if the battleship is in 114 and the Germans are west of that, which is what I thought your situation probably was…
Wait - looks like JimmyHat, not you.
I thought transports could unload in a hostile sea zone, assuming their escorts won the naval battle?
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Germany could do it more easily. And Germany could destroy the battleship and do an amphibious landing in the same turn, I think.
Not if the battleship is in 114 and the Germans are west of that, which is what I thought your situation probably was…
Wait - looks like JimmyHat, not you.
I thought transports could unload in a hostile sea zone, assuming their escorts won the naval battle?
Yes, but 115 would be the unloading zone. Russian player would put BB in 114 to block, and the only way to open it up is with the Italians. OP insinuated that the 114 block made an invasion of Leningrad impossible, and I was merely pointing out that the Italian airforce is big enough that it can quite possibly destroy the BB and can open for the Germans.
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Yes that is true though unlikely, a game occurrence I have never seen because the Italian aircraft are always operating in the Med defending their fleet or even in Africa trying to carve out a beachead. That is why the Rus bb block works so well. Also Gamerman is right in that 114 is the best blocking sz for the Russians, because 113 is serviced by a naval base in WGerm.
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Bottom line, I’ve played multiple games as the Soviet Union where I didn’t let anyone attack my units except an infantry I left as a road block. Even when Japan invades Russia turn one/two and tries to keep pushing, it still didn’t make much difference because they can only take a territory a turn. So when Germany finally reaches Moscow, almost every single unit I’ve built as Russia is there defending my capital. Sure, if time weren’t a factor, it’s a bad strategy, but I know that the Allies are going to be landing in force by turn 5 or so, so the Axis is not able to deal with the Allied pressure and overcome a huge Moscow stack.
If the allies are landing in force in turn 5 Europe is lost regardless of a large stack of inf in Moscow.
Nothing is gained in the game by removing USSRs chance to defend and making a German attack on Russia go faster. On the contrary.
The huge stack isn’t an automatic win. -
Bottom line, I’ve played multiple games as the Soviet Union where I didn’t let anyone attack my units except an infantry I left as a road block. Even when Japan invades Russia turn one/two and tries to keep pushing, it still didn’t make much difference because they can only take a territory a turn. So when Germany finally reaches Moscow, almost every single unit I’ve built as Russia is there defending my capital. Sure, if time weren’t a factor, it’s a bad strategy, but I know that the Allies are going to be landing in force by turn 5 or so, so the Axis is not able to deal with the Allied pressure and overcome a huge Moscow stack.
If the allies are landing in force in turn 5 Europe is lost regardless of a large stack of inf in Moscow.
Nothing is gained in the game by removing USSRs chance to defend and making a German attack on Russia go faster. On the contrary.
The huge stack isn’t an automatic win.Well, not having the huge stack gives the Axis a bit more of a chance to blitz and take the necessary 8 victory cities quickly.
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Bottom line, I’ve played multiple games as the Soviet Union where I didn’t let anyone attack my units except an infantry I left as a road block. Even when Japan invades Russia turn one/two and tries to keep pushing, it still didn’t make much difference because they can only take a territory a turn. So when Germany finally reaches Moscow, almost every single unit I’ve built as Russia is there defending my capital. Sure, if time weren’t a factor, it’s a bad strategy, but I know that the Allies are going to be landing in force by turn 5 or so, so the Axis is not able to deal with the Allied pressure and overcome a huge Moscow stack.
If the allies are landing in force in turn 5 Europe is lost regardless of a large stack of inf in Moscow.
Nothing is gained in the game by removing USSRs chance to defend and making a German attack on Russia go faster. On the contrary.
The huge stack isn’t an automatic win.Well, not having the huge stack gives the Axis a bit more of a chance to blitz and take the necessary 8 victory cities quickly.
Well - of course. And removing the Russian troops entirely would equally.
You cannot remove the turtle. You shouldn’t IMO make it easier to take Russia.
We should however figure out why turteling is so strong and address that cause instead of just the symptom.If you make it any easier to take Russia, you’ve effectively turned Germany into a one trick pony and removed most strategy from the European board.
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