Balance Idea: Remove the Gibraltar Naval Base

[Bigtiti]

@calvinhobbesliker:

I’m up for a game to test these ideas. Since you think alpha weakens the axis, I’ll play axis and we can use the alpha setup.

believe me, calvin is right
the alpha setup removes too many wings from japan
and they really need to wait to round 3 for a decent attack, while with regular setup it can be any time
and germany can only expand into russia, italy a very tiny bit into africa: it’s japan who ‘saves’ the day for axis

[oztea]

@kobu

It doenst matter that you cant bomb it on I1, you only have to bomb it BEFORE the US is using it. and every turn thereafter.

UK cant repair it on the US turn so any US boats there are trapped because they cant get back to the US, or to Italy, or to west germany or norway.

The Gibraltar naval base isnt going anywhere, it is an icon of the United Kingdom simply because it is a naval base.

If you want it gone, bomb it.

[Kobu]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Balance does not necessarily mean helping Italy. Removing Queensland NB prevents all the DEI from being reached.

Weakening the Allies in the Pacific, and the already least effective Ally next to France at that, isn’t going to balance the game at all. It just makes ANZAC a bit less fun to play.

@calvinhobbesliker:

The alpha setup weakens both sides equally, removing the same number of planes from both sides and also removing 2 allied transports and 1 Japanese transport. It reduces the number of Indian planes by 2, which would help Italy.

Not even close.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Germany does not lose the game by doing Sealion. Its multiple transports allow lots of units to be shipped into Russia(for example, into Novgorod or Nenetsia).

Fat lot of good that’s going to do. See the numerous play reports. If you’ve got something that works, make a thread on it and tell us your strategy.

If the game is unbalanced, just weaken the US by finding a way to reduce its income or something. Don’t weaken the UK in the only theater it has a chance in.

A fairer fight between Italian and UK forces is much preferable to this notion of giving something to the UK.

I’m up for a game to test these ideas. Since you think alpha weakens the axis, I’ll play axis and we can use the alpha setup.

What exactly did you want to test? That the Allies simply crush the Axis as the game is today? I think you could get this from basically playing anyone or reading the battle reports. I myself haven’t played online in nearly a decade and don’t really have the time or inclination to do so anymore.

[calvinhobbesliker]

It also prevents the US from using it. Taranto is the only time the UK uses the NB.

Ask jim010 about what to do after Sealion.

Please tell me why “not even close” applies to my statement that the alpha setup weakens both sides equally?

[Kobu]

@Imperious:

Move the UK carrier and DD to another location so that it cant attack, or just use my original idea:

Italy is neutral until her turn, sop she cant be attacked. ON her turn SHE begins her war, not England.

Moving the carrier would work. My idea was to help with both issues of the immediate sinking of the Italian fleet and the immense movement bonus later for the US.

A neutral Italy isn’t a bad idea, however Italy had already declared war at this point. I suppose you could flub it.

[calvinhobbesliker]

How about this: move both the UK Northern fleets and Gibraltar fleets. That allows the bulk of both Italy’s and UK’s fleets to survive. Also, remove the EUS and New Brunswick naval base, so it can’t reach Gib in 1 move

[Kobu]

@oztea:

@kobu

It doenst matter that you cant bomb it on I1, you only have to bomb it BEFORE the US is using it. and every turn thereafter.

UK cant repair it on the US turn so any US boats there are trapped because they cant get back to the US, or to Italy, or to west germany or norway.

The Gibraltar naval base isnt going anywhere, it is an icon of the United Kingdom simply because it is a naval base.

If you want it gone, bomb it.

Germany turn 1 is when you’d want to bomb it to protect the Italian fleet. But that option is not there.

You have less than a 50% of damaging it to the point of uselessness with a single bomber in a single turn. That chance goes down to practically nothing once the US lands forces there. So how does the US fleet get trapped? Unless you are assuming the UK is gone so they aren’t able to repair it, I don’t really understand what your strategy is trying to accomplish.

[Kobu]

@calvinhobbesliker:

It also prevents the US from using it. Taranto is the only time the UK uses the NB.

Ask jim010 about what to do after Sealion.

Please tell me why “not even close” applies to my statement that the alpha setup weakens both sides equally?

It’s meant to balance the Pacific game and it does so by severely scaling back on Japan forces so they can’t just win by declaring war on turn 1. I don’t know why you’d think that would balance the global game when the Axis are already so far behind.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Kobu:

@calvinhobbesliker:

It also prevents the US from using it. Taranto is the only time the UK uses the NB.

Ask jim010 about what to do after Sealion.

Please tell me why “not even close” applies to my statement that the alpha setup weakens both sides equally?

It’s meant to balance the Pacific game and it does so by severely scaling back on Japan forces so they can’t just win by declaring war on turn 1. I don’t know why you’d think that would balance the global game when the Axis are already so far behind.

I didn’t say it balances G40. I said it removes the same things from both sides.

[oztea]

The Italian fleet should be in range of the UK on UK 1.
This is a fact of the game and history.
Italy should face an uphill battle, that is its lot in life.
If it is unharrased, then it becomes a juggernaut

Personally, I dont even do the Taranto raid, Its pointless. Killing those ships at the expense of your own does very little.
There is an even more devious tactic the UK can use on Italy on UK1

[calvinhobbesliker]

@oztea:

The Italian fleet should be in range of the UK on UK 1.
This is a fact of the game and history.
Italy should face an uphill battle, that is its lot in life.
If it is unharrased, then it becomes a juggernaut

Personally, I dont even do the Taranto raid, Its pointless. Killing those ships at the expense of your own does very little.
There is an even more devious tactic the UK can use on Italy on UK1

What is that devious tactic?

[Kobu]

@calvinhobbesliker:

I didn’t say it balances G40. I said it removes the same things from both sides.

Then I don’t know what point you were trying to make in a topic about trying to make the game more balanced.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Kobu:

@calvinhobbesliker:

I didn’t say it balances G40. I said it removes the same things from both sides.

Then I don’t know what point you were trying to make in a topic about trying to make the game more balanced.

No, the topic was specifically  making Italy stronger. Alpha makes Italy stronger by removing 2 potential UK planes from going to Africa.

[SgtBlitz]

How about just moving Naval Bases from the game entirely?

Or just removing the ability to send units 3 spaces away.

Or making the Atlantic bigger again…

I was really happy about this 1940 game when I heard it was going to take the US 2 turns to reach Europe from the East coast.  WRONG…

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

How about just moving Naval Bases from the game entirely?

It makes the game slow.

[lnmajor]

Gibralter NB must stay. ILs idea is good. Calvins right, dont weaken UK.
How about strengthen ITALY? any suggestions?

[mike b]

Last time i played the Germany player on t1 used 2 subs to attack the UK DD and CV on G1.  The CV was damaged the DD destroyed and the fighter had to land at Gibraltar and the carrier had to go back to the UK to avoid being killed.  This prevented Taranto, but it also meant that more of the UK fleet in the North Sea survived.

[oztea]

Strenghten Italy - 1 Bomber North Italy

[lnmajor]

Thats a good start. how about another cruiser and 2 more destroyers to keep UK from sinking entire Italian fleet. Is that too much?

[SgtBlitz]

@mike:

Last time i played the Germany player on t1 used 2 subs to attack the UK DD and CV on G1.  The CV was damaged the DD destroyed and the fighter had to land at Gibraltar and the carrier had to go back to the UK to avoid being killed.  This prevented Taranto, but it also meant that more of the UK fleet in the North Sea survived.

What the hell was the UK guy smoking here?  The CV was repaired on start of UK1, and he could STILL of sent the TAC over to SZ 95 from Gibraltar (Airbase!) along with the FIG and CA from Egypt to kill SZ 95.  Hell, if he wanted to be suicidal, he could of even sent in the CV too for an extra two hits, just to have made sure.

Italy NEEDS some subs (1-2 SS) in SZ 95 methinks, to make it fair.  Whoever out there is saying that the Taranto raid is historical, Italy had like a hundred submarines in service, one of the largest submarine fleets in the world at the time (second only to Russia!  218 subs in Russia in 1941!  Germany herself only had 57 in operation at the time hostilities commenced, most were constructed during the course of the war.)  Britain only historically attacked Taranto with air units; bringing in the DD and CA should let them engage the subs there, and allow the Italian player to fob off some extra naval hits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regia_Marina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsmarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Navy

WHY does Germany get to start with 5 U-boats vs. Italy’s NONE, when HISTORICALLY Italy had 2x as many subs at the start of the war than Germany did?  Maybe something called GAME BALANCE???  Or perhaps Larry WANTS Germany to kill 90% of the Royal Navy at Round 1 to give the Axis half a chance of victory, not to mention the fact that the Germans are the best positioned to use them effectively?  At any rate, it looks like a Taranto raid is the ONLY WAY the UK can get some kind of a revenge for the G1 sinking of 90% of its fleet around Britain.

If we go by the numbers, Russia should start with about 20 submarines to Germany’s 5, while Italy gets 10 in the Med.  VERY different game.

Also, it appears that the UK had as many submarines as the Germans did at the start of WWII…  Where are those?

http://www.secondworldwar.org.uk/britsubs.html