Lets talk Germany Round 1

[Zhukov44]

@Granada:

Well, IMHO, in V4, contrary to the revised, it is not the best opening with russia to attack ukraine R1.

I belive if you do the standard ukr, wer opening, the G7 R1 attack (SZ2, SZ5, SZ13, SZ 15, AE, kar and ukr) if succesfull, which is by far more then 50 %, gives the axis dramatic advantage. Hence, I play the norwegian gambit with russia R1, i leave ukraine and i go there with 10 tanks only R3.

Granted this is a Germany thread, but could you go into more detail here?  Are you talking about low luck or dice?  Do you take 1 or 2 fighters to Norway?

I’m not terribly experienced playing this game but I’m inclined to believe that if you go Nor/WR in dice, it will lead to disaster around 50% of the time or more.  However if you take both figs to Norway then at least Norway is still in the 80%ish range, and if you use low luck dice then you don’t have to worry so much about losing the game because of bad dice at West Russia.

[Nix]

Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

[Hobbes]

@Nix:

Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Hobbes:

@Nix:

Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.

…which is why he doesn’t do Ukraine either

[Zhukov44]

Bel/WR is definitely worth discussing, but I wonder if this opening has lost some of its luster compared to the Revised edition.  What I mean is–Bel/WR was effective in Revised because it prevented Germany from stacking Kar.  However, in 42, if R doesn’t kill the Nor fig R1, then ordinarily Germany has no interest in stacking Kar until G2, and will defend Nor instead.

As for the WR/Nor vrs. WR/Ukr debates, it all depends on whether one is playing dice or ll, and
how many planes one proposes to send to Nor.  And it’s not just the risk of failing at Nor that’s dangerous, there’s also the possiblity of losing 3 or more inf at WR and then having Germany go whole hog on West Russia, decapitating the Russian army.

In dice, Ukraine is not risky at all compared to Nor–as much as one gets diced there, if you go with 3 arm, then R has 97% to kill the Kraut fig and still have at least 1 unit remaining.

All that said…with low luck dice Nor/WR or even the Nor/WR/Ukr triple are no doubt worth a look.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Zhukov44:

Bel/WR is definitely worth discussing, but I wonder if this opening has lost some of its luster compared to the Revised edition.  What I mean is–Bel/WR was effective in Revised because it prevented Germany from stacking Kar.  However, in 42, if R doesn’t kill the Nor fig R1, then ordinarily Germany has no interest in stacking Kar until G2, and will defend Nor instead.

As for the WR/Nor vrs. WR/Ukr debates, it all depends on whether one is playing dice or ll, and
how many planes one proposes to send to Nor.  And it’s not just the risk of failing at Nor that’s dangerous, there’s also the possiblity of losing 3 or more inf at WR and then having Germany go whole hog on West Russia, decapitating the Russian army.

In dice, Ukraine is not risky at all compared to Nor–as much as one gets diced there, if you go with 3 arm, then R has 97% to kill the Kraut fig and still have at least 1 unit remaining.

All that said…with low luck dice Nor/WR or even the Nor/WR/Ukr triple are no doubt worth a look.

What attacks Norway, WR, and Ukr in the triple?

[Zhukov44]

Something like

3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Zhukov44:

Something like

3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

Can you link me to that game?

[Hobbes]

@Zhukov44:

Something like

3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

Even when playing with dice I do the Ukraine attack. It is rare to see it fail and Russia might also get lucky and only lose 1-2 units in the process, turning Ukraine into a big headache for the Germans. If it fails… well the odds are about the same than attacking the UK DD in Egypt with the BB, and if you lose that one the Axis will also have a longer staircase to climb.

With LL the triple attack (BR/WR/Ukr) is a big setback for Germany but BR should be the 3rd target, not Norway. Even if Russia kills the 2 German fighters on Norway/Ukr not attacking BR it leaves WR completely open for a German counterattack and the Germans can counterattack all 3 territories.

[Hobbes]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Hobbes:

@Nix:

Norway attack is suicide and if you fail you basically lost the game.

Im a strong advocate of Belorussia and Westrussia attack, ignore Ukraine also very risky attack that leaves all your armour exposed for counter attack = ie death.

You can also get bad dice on the Ukraine attack and fail it… I’m not sure which one is worse to happen, but Russia can recover from either attack it is just a matter of what happens afterwards.

…which is why he doesn’t do Ukraine either

Ah, I read it differently the 1st time. thanks

[Nix]

@Zhukov44:

Something like

3 inf arm fig attk Nor (70% in low luck)
6 inf art fig attk WR (100% in low luck)
3 inf art 3 arm attk UKR (79% in low luck)

Or you take the fig from WR and send it to either Ukr or Nor for 100% odds in one of those battles, but that lowers your odds in WR from 100% with 4.3 remaining to 77% with 1.91 remaining (odds come from TripleA calc).

Very risky approach and costs alot of IPCs, but it might work in cases where you get both G figs out of there R1.

I had someone try this against me in a dice game recently and it backfired so badly that I took Moscow on Germany 1.  So not recommended for a dice game unless you want to go for broke.

And if you fail you lost the game, So basically your betting the game on R1.

Also i exclusively play dice thought,

[Advosan]

I know we shouldn’t talk R1 in this thread, but imho attacking either NOR or UKR in R1 is very very risky and pretty much messes up the russian army, leaving it wide open to every G1 counterattack imagined. In most cases G1 will be able to reclaim WR, NOR and URK (and even KAR) and destroy the bulke of the Red army armor while they are at it.

Nonetheless, if one desides to do so, imho it pays better off to attack NOR than UKR, because the destruction of the NOR fgt assures that the SZ2 BB survives G1 which I believe is absolutely paramount for the Allies, either playing a US Atlantic or Pacific strat (especially the latter).

---

As for G1, imho must be (given R1 took WR and UKR)

1. capture KAR, UKR with minimum forces required
2. SS+bmb+fgt SZ2,
3. BB SZ15
4. 2 inf 2 arm 1 fgt AES,
5. 3 fgt SZ13
6. fortify WE + NOR with 3 inf, fgt each
   8 ) 2 SS SZ7

…… and place:

1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

“AC Graff Zeppeling reporting for duty”. :-P

I know it leaves Europe empty, but imho it messes up UK1 for good, because i) out of nowhere UK must consider a G2 “Sea Lion” (2 inf, 2 arm, 4 ftr, 1 bmb), ii) it assures the german flow to Africa no matter what happens to SZ14 CC or the SZ15 BB.
And G can afford an empty Europe so early in the game, with the US far away, the UK in trouble and the red army still underequipped.

What do you think?

[Zhukov44]

…… and place:

1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

2 fleets?

UK buys 3 figs, and USA buys 3 bmbs.  At that point, Germany had better give up its fleets for dead, because if G engages in another round of naval spending then the Russians will have superior TUV on land.

Also, in cases where R bought a sub/fig R1 and intends to destroy SZ15 on R2, they can go ahead and follow up with another sub(s) buy on R2 if all you buy is a cruiser for SZ14.

[Nix]

Agree with Zhukov, imo iPC´s are better spent on Air units then naval units, 3 bom, 2 inf or 4 fig…  G1

[Advosan]

@Zhukov44:

…… and place:

1. AC (+land 1 or 2 ftr on it, depending on SZ13 battle), TT in SZ5
2. CC, TT SZ14 (and move to SE 2 arm ->WE and 2 inf ->G)

2 fleets?

UK buys 3 figs, and USA buys 3 bmbs.  At that point, Germany had better give up its fleets for dead, because if G engages in another round of naval spending then the Russians will have superior TUV on land.

Also, in cases where R bought a sub/fig R1 and intends to destroy SZ15 on R2, they can go ahead and follow up with another sub(s) buy on R2 if all you buy is a cruiser for SZ14.

In every case both fleets are dead eventually (first the baltic, then the Med) but either UK will need 2 or most probably 3 rounds (buy 3 fgt , buy 2 bmb + 1 SS at best, attack the baltic) to destroy the baltic fleet, unless the USA helps a lot, which gives axis the time to lean on africa untill it cracks. As for the med fleet, we always play the Straights of Bosporus  closed to all powers for historical accuracy, so Russia will either have to go heavy on airforce that cannot afford, or the USA will go Atlantic just to chase those CC and BB or the British will deal with them after they clear the Baltic. In every case, G has 2 or 3 rounds to crack africa, reach 47-49 IPC and start building some serious pressure against moscow.

No?

And you  r right, G imho should never buy a second round of navy. The baltic navy is just to distract the british away from Africa, the med navy is just to ensure that at least 1 inf+arm crosses to africa in G2 and even G3.

[Zhukov44]

Bosphorus strait closed doesn’t stop Russia from the R2 fleet kill; Russia can buy a fighter or bomber R1 instead.  In this case, they could then choose whether to take out 14 or 15 first, and then buy another fig/bmb R2 to finish off what’s left.  So the only way to keep a Med fleet alive is to keep it all in 14.

Re. the Baltic, if UK buys 3 figs, then on UK2 they have 5, possibly 6 planes to destroy 2 fig 1 ac 1 dd, (depending on whether UK risked its bomber to kill your CC/tpt in sz 14 on Uk1), plus the USA follow-up attack just in case.  So Germany must either buy a 2nd AC or lose its Baltic fleet on UK2.

Even more expensive then these bad trades is the price G will pay on the Eastern front for spending 34$ on navy instead of troops.

Give it a shot on GTO or TripleA live–-best way to see how things play out is against a wide variety of opposition.

[Hobbes]

@Zhukov44:

Bosphorus strait closed doesn’t stop Russia from the R2 fleet kill; Russia can buy a fighter or bomber R1 instead.  In this case, they could then choose whether to take out 14 or 15 first, and then buy another fig/bmb R2 to finish off what’s left.  So the only way to keep a Med fleet alive is to keep it all in 14.

Re. the Baltic, if UK buys 3 figs, then on UK2 they have 5, possibly 6 planes to destroy 2 fig 1 ac 1 dd, (depending on whether UK risked its bomber to kill your CC/tpt in sz 14 on Uk1), plus the USA follow-up attack just in case.  So Germany must either buy a 2nd AC or lose its Baltic fleet on UK2.

Even more expensive then these bad trades is the price G will pay on the Eastern front for spending 34$ on navy instead of troops.

Give it a shot on GTO or TripleA live–-best way to see how things play out is against a wide variety of opposition.

I agree. Trying to keep 2 fleets on the Baltic/Med is a waste of resources. Germany should instead focus either on building on SZ14 to try to hold Africa (and I stress ‘try’ since if the Allies really want it back, they’ll have it). Plus I’d be salivating if I was Russia and G goes full naval on G1.  :-D

In total Africa is worth 11 IPCs. By comparison all of the Eastern territories between G and R are worth 20 (or 24 if you add Caucasus). The real trick is to balance the investment in Africa necessary to take/hold it with the gains you get out of it and make it as hard as possible to the other player to do the same. If you are building a carrier and a transport for SZ14 that’s 21 IPCs + 12 to 15 for ground units each turn, and it will take a while to get that investment back. And that’s all money that won’t be going towards Russia.

[nutbar]

Strategic Planner as Germany tends to do this
1)Take Karelia , Anglo-Egypt Sudan,  UK, and sometimes Caucases on G1
2) Take Caucases definitely,Archangel,Africa, and possibly Moscow on G2

I reccomend a Defensive or KRF for Germany. KBF is possible with Strategic Planner but Strategic planner has won every game but 1.

[calvinhobbesliker]

How does Germany take UK on g1?

[Advosan]

I recently realized that most people play Bosporus open. This is imho not only historically wrong, but also created a huge advantage for the Axis. How can the allies ever win if G med trannies drop units in caucasus directly from SE??

I know it is an optional rule to play Bosporus closed, but I think it should be the other way around.

And I think TripleA team should include 2 optional rules, a) Bosporus closed to ships and b) strategic bombing raid defending + escort fgt…

No?