This is the fundamental problem caused by the archaic “Capture the Capital” rules: however you try to avoid it, the game always comes down to the Axis trying to capture Moscow before the Allies bring their combined industrial muscle to bear.
This makes Moscow the inevitable prime objective for Germany (except perhaps London, which must be achieved without Japanese help), and as the above posts suggest this is only likely with Japanese help from the east.
No matter how many territories Larry places between Moscow and Manchuria, or how many false diversions towards “Victory Cities”, the C-t-C rule will always bring those Axis armies towards Moscow like a giant magnet. The huge benefits of closing down the Russian economy are still so vast that any other Axis strategy is completely insane.
This is why so many house rules delete the rule in favour of a power being able to collect money from every territory it holds regardless of capitals, and produce units as long as it has a factory remaining. In other words, the Axis must close down the Russian economy by stages, capturing all it’s industrial centres in turn, rather than the inevitable drive to Moscow.
There should in fact be 5 such centres in Russia, with Kiev (west Ukraine) and Chelyabinsk (Novosibirsk) having factories and respectable IPC values. Japan can cast envious eyes on the Siberian factory, but with the race to Moscow no longer the key to everything, a long term Pacific adventure may be more rewarding.
I have not seen a picture of the map, but from reading this thread, couldn’t one build transports in preparation for a Sea Lion attack but instead make a dash for Leningrad? It would force the UK to protect themselves and it would also fool the USSR.
This looks like the most obvious way to get infantry into Russia, but the Allies will probably be willing to forego the “no Aliens” Soviet bonus in order to pump UK/US units into northern Russia. I suspect that Leningrad will become as much the focus of this game as Stalingrad was in Revised.
Munchie that is going to be my strategy with the Germans, build a fake sealion fleet of about 4-5 ships and use them to shuffle troops back and forth to Leningrad which I feel is a key, as well as a factory in Romania to dealing with the Russians. Those sea lion ships serve two purposes and that IC in Leningrad would be worth its weight in gold.
Methinks that to really take down the Russian collosus, it’s going to take teamwork between at least 2 if not all 3 Axis powers.
If Russia is reduced to building all infantry 2-3 turns after the initial invasion, the defending stack on Moscow will be insane (70-80-100? Inf), plus any FIGs the other Allied powers land on it will just add to the mass. It’s probably a safe bet that Germany can get a stack of its own in striking distance, with the right units to attack it (the right ratio of tanks and planes to infantry, just not enough stack overall to kill the Russian stack). Germany/Italy and Japan will probably have to have alternate stacks on Russia with enough force between them to chew the stack apart. I’m thinking a Japanese stack of like 20-30 ground units plus 10-15 planes, and a German/Italian stack with 40-50 ground units and 5-10 planes, against a Soviet beast of 70-80 inf plus whatever else is lying around, maybe 5 planes.
Japan would have to start off the initial attack from its stack in the Caucasus and essentially sacrifice its stack to get as many causalties as possible piled up (hopefully about even numbers for the units its killing off, 20-30 Russian inf or so), then Italy would follow (hopefully getting 5-10 more inf killed), and finally Germany would land the killing blow (probably just barely too, with the forces available~ 50 vs. 50 land units) before Russia’s turn where it would be able to build more inf again. This order could be changed so that Japan deals the finishing blow, but with the way things are set up in the Pacific with Japan unable to attack J1, I believe Japan will be arriving in Russia much later than Germany does (plus the Reds will have a turn to build some inf inbetween attacks).
The Allies would most certainly land more fighters into Russia once they realized what the Axis are doing, but this seems pretty much the only way Russia is going to be taken down (with a HELL of a lot of casaulties!).
Methinks that to really take down the Russian collosus, it’s going to take teamwork between at least 2 if not all 3 Axis powers.
If Russia is reduced to building all infantry 2-3 turns after the initial invasion, the defending stack on Moscow will be insane (70-80-100? Inf), plus any FIGs the other Allied powers land on it will just add to the mass. It’s probably a safe bet that Germany can get a stack of its own in striking distance, with the right units to attack it (the right ratio of tanks and planes to infantry, just not enough stack overall to kill the Russian stack). Germany/Italy and Japan will probably have to have alternate stacks on Russia with enough force between them to chew the stack apart. I’m thinking a Japanese stack of like 20-30 ground units plus 10-15 planes, and a German/Italian stack with 40-50 ground units and 5-10 planes, against a Soviet beast of 70-80 inf plus whatever else is lying around, maybe 5 planes.
Japan would have to start off the initial attack from its stack in the Caucasus and essentially sacrifice its stack to get as many causalties as possible piled up (hopefully about even numbers for the units its killing off, 20-30 Russian inf or so), then Italy would follow (hopefully getting 5-10 more inf killed), and finally Germany would land the killing blow (probably just barely too, with the forces available~ 50 vs. 50 land units) before Russia’s turn where it would be able to build more inf again. This order could be changed so that Japan deals the finishing blow, but with the way things are set up in the Pacific with Japan unable to attack J1, I believe Japan will be arriving in Russia much later than Germany does (plus the Reds will have a turn to build some inf inbetween attacks).
The Allies would most certainly land more fighters into Russia once they realized what the Axis are doing, but this seems pretty much the only way Russia is going to be taken down (with a HELL of a lot of casaulties!).
Good. I was getting frustrated until I realized Japan would invade Russia from Persia, not Siberia. If Russia fell, it would need to take this much effort.
What are the other 2 Major allied powers doing while all 3 Axis countries are teeing off on Russia? The only way I’ve found to bring down the bear so far was a turtle Germany churning out stacks of inf and the odd tank or 3 while Italy goes all defensive as well while using the transports (assuming they don’t die GB1) to begin evacuating forces from Africa back into Europe (which I find to be pretty entertaining as its the only effective use I’ve found for the Italian forces in Tobruk so far). Make a quick G4 push to take Leningrad and leave an adequate holding force there while retreating the rest of the army back to Europe to destroy allied landings each turn. Soviet forces are forced to call off any pursuit as a J1 attacking Japan comes cruising in, building IC’s where it can to produce about 90 pts a turn of tanks and mech inf to marshal in Stalingrad with the remnants of its air-force for the final push. Then it just turns into a race to see if the Japs can finish off Moscow before the US/Brits conquer Berlin.
What are the other 2 Major allied powers doing while all 3 Axis countries are teeing off on Russia? The only way I’ve found to bring down the bear so far was a turtle Germany churning out stacks of inf and the odd tank or 3 while Italy goes all defensive as well while using the transports (assuming they don’t die GB1) to begin evacuating forces from Africa back into Europe (which I find to be pretty entertaining as its the only effective use I’ve found for the Italian forces in Tobruk so far). Make a quick G4 push to take Leningrad and leave an adequate holding force there while retreating the rest of the army back to Europe to destroy allied landings each turn. Soviet forces are forced to call off any pursuit as a J1 attacking Japan comes cruising in, building IC’s where it can to produce about 90 pts a turn of tanks and mech inf to marshal in Stalingrad with the remnants of its air-force for the final push. Then it just turns into a race to see if the Japs can finish off Moscow before the US/Brits conquer Berlin.
Isn’t this exactly what Global was supposed to avoid(the JTDTM and KGF?)
What are the other 2 Major allied powers doing while all 3 Axis countries are teeing off on Russia? The only way I’ve found to bring down the bear so far was a turtle Germany churning out stacks of inf and the odd tank or 3 while Italy goes all defensive as well while using the transports (assuming they don’t die GB1) to begin evacuating forces from Africa back into Europe (which I find to be pretty entertaining as its the only effective use I’ve found for the Italian forces in Tobruk so far). Make a quick G4 push to take Leningrad and leave an adequate holding force there while retreating the rest of the army back to Europe to destroy allied landings each turn. Soviet forces are forced to call off any pursuit as a J1 attacking Japan comes cruising in, building IC’s where it can to produce about 90 pts a turn of tanks and mech inf to marshal in Stalingrad with the remnants of its air-force for the final push. Then it just turns into a race to see if the Japs can finish off Moscow before the US/Brits conquer Berlin.
Isn’t this exactly what Global was supposed to avoid(the JTDTM and KGF?)
Witness the source of my frustration with this game so far.
What are the other 2 Major allied powers doing while all 3 Axis countries are teeing off on Russia? The only way I’ve found to bring down the bear so far was a turtle Germany churning out stacks of inf and the odd tank or 3 while Italy goes all defensive as well while using the transports (assuming they don’t die GB1) to begin evacuating forces from Africa back into Europe (which I find to be pretty entertaining as its the only effective use I’ve found for the Italian forces in Tobruk so far). Make a quick G4 push to take Leningrad and leave an adequate holding force there while retreating the rest of the army back to Europe to destroy allied landings each turn. Soviet forces are forced to call off any pursuit as a J1 attacking Japan comes cruising in, building IC’s where it can to produce about 90 pts a turn of tanks and mech inf to marshal in Stalingrad with the remnants of its air-force for the final push. Then it just turns into a race to see if the Japs can finish off Moscow before the US/Brits conquer Berlin.
Isn’t this exactly what Global was supposed to avoid(the JTDTM and KGF?)
Witness the source of my frustration with this game so far.
I see. But Russia can’t build 10 inf every turn, right? Eventually, they’ll get down below 30. Besides, a 80 ipc Japan will invade ANZAC, Hawaii, and even North America if the US does KGF. Without the full might of the US, Germany’s 70-80 ipc’s of ground units shouls hold off allied landings: they have to build transports AND troops; you have to build just troops
Russia can build 10 inf a turn no problem for many turns into the game, longer into it certainly than Germany can think about doing anything but fighting for its life. The Axis need to strip 7-12 pts off Russia to bring it down to 9 per turn, and this is assuming the Russians don’t do a little exploring in the Middle East early on to buff up their Eco even more. And there’s no Jap invasion of America possible that the US can’t defuse with a turn or two worth of spending. Meanwhile, the force necessary to do so critically weakens the Jap eco and offensive into Russia far more than the US suffers from it.
Russia can build 10 inf a turn no problem for many turns into the game, longer into it certainly than Germany can think about doing anything but fighting for its life. The Axis need to strip 7-12 pts off Russia to bring it down to 9 per turn, and this is assuming the Russians don’t do a little exploring in the Middle East early on to buff up their Eco even more. And there’s no Jap invasion of America possible that the US can’t defuse with a turn or two worth of spending. Meanwhile, the force necessary to do so critically weakens the Jap eco and offensive into Russia far more than the US suffers from it.
Really? Japan makes 78 ipc’s by taking all of Asia on the P40 map excluding Russia. If they take a few Siberian terirtories and Alaska, they are equal to the US in income. Japan can invade Alaska and BC in 1 turn. Then America has to focus not on building ships, but gound units to stop japan. This essentially takes both of them out of the game. Now it’s Gemrany and Italy vs UK and Russia. germany will have more than Russia in income, and italy will have more than UK
The problem with that is Japan needs to spend IPC’s on stuff like transports and airforce and fleet screens to approach the US, whereas the US just needs to purchase some land units. The US is spending its IPC’s more efficiently than Japan and sooner or later will push them out of Alaska regardless of what you bring in there. They then march over to the Atlantic and board transports for Europe, while Japan is stuck rebuilding from scratch. Japan and the US are very close to equal in power, I’ll definitely give you that, but Japan is far more vulnerable to harassment than the US meaning that ultimately the US will prevail if the two duke it out, and in shorter order than it’ll take for the Germans to make an effective push for Moscow. Meanwhile, through the magic of naval bases the US is back in action in Europe 2 turns later.
The problem with that is Japan needs to spend IPC’s on stuff like transports and airforce and fleet screens to approach the US, whereas the US just needs to purchase some land units. The US is spending its IPC’s more efficiently than Japan and sooner or later will push them out of Alaska regardless of what you bring in there. They then march over to the Atlantic and board transports for Europe, while Japan is stuck rebuilding from scratch. Japan and the US are very close to equal in power, I’ll definitely give you that, but Japan is far more vulnerable to harassment than the US meaning that ultimately the US will prevail if the two duke it out, and in shorter order than it’ll take for the Germans to make an effective push for Moscow. Meanwhile, through the magic of naval bases the US is back in action in Europe 2 turns later.
Japan just needs a few trannies, and then they just build land units to shuck them every turn.
How are a few trannies shucking units back and forth gonna be enough to hold out against the 15 inf 5-10 art the US can purchase each turn? You need the Jap airforce to pose any sort of legitimate threat to the US, and putting them in Alaska is not getting your money’s worth outta them.
How are a few trannies shucking units back and forth gonna be enough to hold out against the 15 inf 5-10 art the US can purchase each turn? You need the Jap airforce to pose any sort of legitimate threat to the US, and putting them in Alaska is not getting your money’s worth outta them.
That’s 65-85 ipc’s you’re spending. Now what has happened to the 5-6 trannies shucking units to Normandy?
They’ve stopped just long enough to drive the Japs out, potentially at great cost to the Jap economy, before turning around and continuing to pummel Europe. Or they can just sit there to guard the WUSA while the US gets back to building new armies in EUSA. You’ve taken the US out of the equation for 2-3 turns max, at the cost of sacrificing your attack on Russia.
They’ve stopped just long enough to drive the Japs out, potentially at great cost to the Jap economy, before turning around and continuing to pummel Europe. Or they can just sit there to guard the WUSA while the US gets back to building new armies in EUSA. You’ve taken the US out of the equation for 2-3 turns max, at the cost of sacrificing your attack on Russia.
What? only 2-3 turns? What part of “Japan and US have the same economy” don’t you understand? Japan starts with more navy and land units than the US
Not by turn 5 they don’t, and it’s more cost-effective to be placing your US troops on IC’s on the American mainland than it is for the Japs to be shucking units (paying additional IPC’s for transports the US obviously doesn’t have to buy to defend its own shores) to the US. Besides, the US can put down 20-25 units a turn on the mainland. How many Jap reinforcements are arriving each turn?
Not by turn 5 they don’t, and it’s more cost-effective to be placing your US troops on IC’s on the American mainland than it is for the Japs to be shucking units (paying additional IPC’s for transports the US obviously doesn’t have to buy to defend its own shores) to the US. Besides, the US can put down 20-25 units a turn on the mainland. How many Jap reinforcements are arriving each turn?
Same thing applies to America invading Europe against a roughly equal income Germany. America has to buy all those transports and ships while Germany builds in its West germany, or even paris factory to defend Normandy. In addition, Italy goes between Britain and US, and it maked 30-40 ipcs, so it can take out the lone Brits at Normandy
Of course, however Germany’s eco is never gonna get anywhere near the US’s. It’ll peak at the end of G1 and it’s all downhill from there. Not to mention the US has the Brits and the Russians to help them in Europe. Who does Japan get to fight alongside if they’re going after the US?
