Poland 1939

[Octospire]

Had the invasion of Poland been completely ignored by the British and French in your opinion would the Germans still of invaded France and the low countries or just sat behind the Siegfried Line until such time as they could either crush the French or sucessfully invade the Soviet Union.

In my opinion had the British and French left the Nazi’s alone after the invasion of Poland they would of left the French alone and the Germans would of built up overwhelming numbers of aircraft and armoured units until such time until they could defeat the Soviets. Personally I think the Nazi’s would have their handful pacifying the Soviet union to worry about invading western Europe.

[Dylan the Canadian]

I think the Germans would still invade France. Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland why should it be different, it’s not like Poland tried to stop them or anything.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Dylan:

I think the Germans would still invade France. Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland why should it be different, it’s not like Poland tried to stop them or anything.

Well, Poland has lebensraum and Jews and Poles to kill

[CWO Marc]

One of the themes Hitler used as part of his political discourse was that Germany had been humiliated by the 1919 Treaty of Versailles, and that this humiliation by the Western Allies had to be avenged.  (Part of this theme was a continuation of the old dispute between France and Germany over the possession of Alsace-Lorraine, a dispute which went back to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871). Having secured Germany’s eastern flank in 1939 with the conquest of Poland and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Hitler was in the perfect position to use the bulk of his forces for an attack against France in 1940.  It’s unlikely he would have missed this opportunity to achieve the victory against France which had eluded Germany during the First World War.  We can see evidence of Hitler’s desire to humiliate France from the fact that he arranged for the June 1940 armistice to be signed at Compiegne, in the same railroad car used by Marshall Foch to sign the armistice to which Germany had agreed in 1918, and from the fact that the German Army’s triumphal parade through Paris in 1940 followed the same route as the French Army’s victory parade at the end of the First World War.

[Imperious Leader]

Hitlers revenge was against France. He would definatly attack them once he was ready.

[ABWorsham4]

@Dylan:

Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland

Hitler had a reason to invade Poland. The rebirth of a new Polish State was at the expense of the Imperial German Empire. Secondly the Danzig Corridor seperate Germany from Prussia and Western Poland did have a minority of Germans living within it’s communities.

The French and British were willing to escalate a regional conflict into a World War over Poland’s freedom yet they did not have the backbone to keep the Soviet Union from controling Poland.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@ABWorsham:

@Dylan:

Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland

Hitler had a reason to invade Poland. The rebirth of a new Polish State was at the expense of the Imperial German Empire. Secondly the Danzig Corridor seperate Germany from Prussia and Western Poland did have a minority of Germans living within it’s communities.

The French and British were willing to escalate a regional conflict into a World War over Poland’s freedom yet they did not have the backbone to keep the Soviet Union from controling Poland.

Or perhaps they knew that Britain/France vs Germany/Russia would be a defeat for them. Not angering someone who is vastly superior to you is not lacking a backbone, it’s having a brain.

[ABWorsham4]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@ABWorsham:

@Dylan:

Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland

Hitler had a reason to invade Poland. The rebirth of a new Polish State was at the expense of the Imperial German Empire. Secondly the Danzig Corridor seperate Germany from Prussia and Western Poland did have a minority of Germans living within it’s communities.

The French and British were willing to escalate a regional conflict into a World War over Poland’s freedom yet they did not have the backbone to keep the Soviet Union from controling Poland.

Or perhaps they knew that Britain/France vs Germany/Russia would be a defeat for them. Not angering someone who is vastly superior to you is not lacking a backbone, it’s having a brain.

No it was a lack of backbone, the allies had the Atom Bomb if things got out of control with the Soviet Union. Six years of war will eat away at a country’s will to fight a war no matter how just it is. The Allies took the easy way out, let the Poles be slaves to the Soviet Union for 50 years.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@ABWorsham:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@ABWorsham:

@Dylan:

Hitler didn’t have a reason to invade Poland

Hitler had a reason to invade Poland. The rebirth of a new Polish State was at the expense of the Imperial German Empire. Secondly the Danzig Corridor seperate Germany from Prussia and Western Poland did have a minority of Germans living within it’s communities.

The French and British were willing to escalate a regional conflict into a World War over Poland’s freedom yet they did not have the backbone to keep the Soviet Union from controling Poland.

Or perhaps they knew that Britain/France vs Germany/Russia would be a defeat for them. Not angering someone who is vastly superior to you is not lacking a backbone, it’s having a brain.

No it was a lack of backbone, the allies had the Atom Bomb if things got out of control with the Soviet Union. Six years of war will eat away at a country’s will to fight a war no matter how just it is. The Allies took the easy way out with was to let the Poles be slaves to the Soviet Union for 50 years.

And 4 years later, so did the Soviets. Attacking with nukes would have lessened our moral standing in the world.

You’re right: 6 years of war takes away the will to fight, but it applies to the Allies as well as to Russia

[221B Baker Street]

I think the Germans would have attacked the Russians before the French.  While Germany would have wanted to get back at France (for obvious reasons), the main causes of the war were in the East.  The East had the Jews (which the Germans believed needed to be removed) and also had the Space for Germany to expand.

Also, Germany (like everyone else but the Japanese) felt the Russians were weak; certainly weaker than France.

[Dylan the Canadian]

@221B:

I think the Germans would have attacked the Russians before the French.  While Germany would have wanted to get back at France (for obvious reasons), the main causes of the war were in the East.  The East had the Jews (which the Germans believed needed to be removed) and also had the Space for Germany to expand.

Also, Germany (like everyone else but the Japanese) felt the Russians were weak; certainly weaker than France.

Why did everyone think  they were weak?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Dylan:

@221B:

I think the Germans would have attacked the Russians before the French.  While Germany would have wanted to get back at France (for obvious reasons), the main causes of the war were in the East.  The East had the Jews (which the Germans believed needed to be removed) and also had the Space for Germany to expand.

Also, Germany (like everyone else but the Japanese) felt the Russians were weak; certainly weaker than France.

Why did everyone think  they were weak?

Purges and the war with Finland

[Dylan the Canadian]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@221B:

I think the Germans would have attacked the Russians before the French.  While Germany would have wanted to get back at France (for obvious reasons), the main causes of the war were in the East.  The East had the Jews (which the Germans believed needed to be removed) and also had the Space for Germany to expand.

Also, Germany (like everyone else but the Japanese) felt the Russians were weak; certainly weaker than France.

Why did everyone think  they were weak?

Purges and the war with Finland

I don’t know what Purges is, but when you hear documentaries about it they talk about how amazing it was that Finland were able too hold out against “the huge” Russian army?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Dylan:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Dylan:

@221B:

I think the Germans would have attacked the Russians before the French.  While Germany would have wanted to get back at France (for obvious reasons), the main causes of the war were in the East.  The East had the Jews (which the Germans believed needed to be removed) and also had the Space for Germany to expand.

Also, Germany (like everyone else but the Japanese) felt the Russians were weak; certainly weaker than France.

Why did everyone think  they were weak?

Purges and the war with Finland

I don’t know what Purges is, but when you hear documentaries about it they talk about how amazing it was that Finland were able too hold out against “the huge” Russian army?

Purges was when Stalin killed most high ranking military leaders because he was paranoid they would betray him

[ABWorsham4]

The U.S.S.R looked weak from the outside.

1.They had millions of the poorest of Europe’s poor- people who’s standard of living was over a thousand years behind Western Europe.

2. They had a millions of enemies within the borders of the U.S.S.R.

3. The country had little in the way of roads.

However these things became strengths. Poor Soviet troops to live off the worst of rations. The lack of roads caused the Germans massive amounts of worn out equipement and impossible resupply situations.

[Octospire]

@ABWorsham:

The U.S.S.R looked weak from the outside.

1.They had millions of the poorest of Europe’s poor- people who’s standard of living was over a thousand years behind Western Europe.

2. They had a millions of enemies within the borders of the U.S.S.R.

3. The country had little in the way of roads.

However these things became strengths. Poor Soviet troops to live off the worst of rations. The lack of roads caused the Germans massive amounts of worn out equipement and impossible resupply situations.

Indeed, it looked like it was ripe for the picking and perhaps it was if the right tactics were employed. Had the Nazi’s painted themselves as liberators and acted accordingly they could of gained a lot of support from the masses of the Soviet people. Also had uprisings occured all around the USSR the Nazi’s would of been able to reach Moscow before winter, take the capital and once that happend all resistance would of fallen apart.

I agree with Baker St about the French being the last on Hitlers list of places to conquer. In my opinion the only reason the Nazi’s invaded France was the fact that the French declared war on Germany had they left Germany alone Hitler would of gone on his merry way to invade the Soviet Union before finally coming back to invade France with the overwhelming superiority of German forces both technologically and numerically. The invasion of France was a massive gamble on the part of the Nazi’s had the French and British counterattacked the flanks of the German advance immediately they could of crushed the German Blitzkreig before it even really begun.

Hitler had no interest in invading Britian until they made themselves his enemy, if over the years from 1939 to say 1949 the Nazi’s defeated and pacified the USSR the Anglo-French alliance would of fallen apart as Britain would of made peace with Germany leaving the French to their own devices, much as Hitler originally intended. Then in the late 1940’s early 1950’s Hitler would attacked and crushed France with the likes of the ME262, V2, Assault Rifle, Tiger Tank etc.

[Dylan the Canadian]

Then how why did Japan still not think they were weak. Also why was Stalin that scared?

[Octospire]

@Dylan:

Then how why did Japan still not think they were weak. Also why was Stalin that scared?

He was scared, incredibly scared but by the same token he was an incredibly intelligent man. When the Nazi’s reached the suburbs of Moscow he stayed in the capital in order to maintain the people’s resolve, that in itself could very well changed the course of the war.

The Japanese did not have the land army to ever be able to compete with the USSR on equal footing especially when most of that land army was tied up fighting in China. Also unlike during the Ruso-Japanese war they had territories at the mercy of the Russian forces at the beginning of any hostilities between those two empires.

Had the Japanese been geared more for war with the USSR instead of a naval campaign against the European powers or the United States then they may very well of seized the important parts of the Eastern Soviet Union like Vladivostok and tied up millions of Soviet troops which would of weakened the forces facing the Nazi’s.

[221B Baker Street]

@Dylan:

Then how why did Japan still not think they were weak. Also why was Stalin that scared?

The Japanese had actually fought the Soviets twice in border skirmishes in the late 30’s along the Russian/Manchurian border.  Both times, the Japanese were soundly defeated, being saved only by multilateral negotiations between the Russians, Japanese, and the other powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria#Russian_and_Japanese_encroachment

At the end of the 1930s, Manchuria was a trouble spot with Japan clashing twice with the Soviet Union. These clashes - at Lake Khasan in 1938 and at Khalkhin Gol one year later - resulted in many Japanese casualties. The Soviet Union won these two battles and a peace agreement was signed. However, the regional unrest endured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

[moralecheck]

@221B:

@Dylan:

Then how why did Japan still not think they were weak. Also why was Stalin that scared?

The Japanese had actually fought the Soviets twice in border skirmishes in the late 30’s along the Russian/Manchurian border.  Both times, the Japanese were soundly defeated, being saved only by multilateral negotiations between the Russians, Japanese, and the other powers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchuria#Russian_and_Japanese_encroachment

At the end of the 1930s, Manchuria was a trouble spot with Japan clashing twice with the Soviet Union. These clashes - at Lake Khasan in 1938 and at Khalkhin Gol one year later - resulted in many Japanese casualties. The Soviet Union won these two battles and a peace agreement was signed. However, the regional unrest endured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Khasan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khalkhin_Gol

Japan made about 5,000 tanks in the whole war, most of which were awful.  Their army was very infantry oriented.  This means that they could take on China reasonably (thanks to air superiority).  In the jungles of south Asia where they fought the british, only small tanks had a chance of getting around, so Japan’s woefully inadequate tanks and AT guns had a chance against the UK’s light armor.  But against the onslaught of Russian armor in northern Asia, not a chance. Japan was not part of the tank race that overtook the western war, so by 1945 the Russians were using massive JS tanks with 122mm guns  and T-34/85’s.  Japan was still using designs that were made to 1939 standards, most with 37-45mm guns.

An interesting tidbit is that Japan only organized its armor into tank divisions half way through the war.  Even then, they only had 2. They had no mech inf in practice. In theory, the 2nd tank division had some but it’s not clear that they were ever used.  There were 2 types of APC, only a handful of each were made, and not until very late in the war.  The 2nd tank division may have had some in Manchuria in 1944 and their records show that they were sent to the Philippinnes with them.  But as no American reports of captured Japanese equipment even mentions them, it’s very possible their transport was sunk enroute.  There were a few APCs with units in Japan, but these never saw action.  These units also had Japan’s only close to modern tank (again only a few were made). No transport was available to send these to Okinawa, despite efforts, so they also saw no action in the war.