Additional balance note:
On TripleA I set all sides to the Fast AI to guarantee equal players. As you can see, the Allies clearly won:
Fortress Malta
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It seems to me that Italy is going to be very hard for the allied to wrestle out of the med. If Italy can quickly build up it’s IPC value and secure Malta then the italian fleet is going to take a committed allied effort to kill all of those ships and planes that italy will station there.
I definitely agree. Their 2 cruisers and battleship were/are problematic enough in Anniversary… they are just hard to get to, at least if you want to use ships, which is necessary if you don’t want to lose a number of planes. Even so, Britain would be the one having to take care of Italy… and the Brits resources are already stretched. Allocating planes/ships to fight Italy will be a precarious spending of resources.
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After Egypt is taken by Italy(turn 2-3?), then Italy takes Malta(turn 3-4?). I’m not sure what the UK can get into the Med by then? I think the first concern for UK in the Med is hanging on to Egypt rather than worrying about Malta…any FTR’s UK has available might go to Egypt for defense.
What kind of fleet will the UK have in Europe?..Germany will try to seek and destroy any UK fleet as soon as possible using subs as soak-off with its FTR’s/bombers doing most of the sinking. By turn 2-3 the Germans have Spain and then Gibraltar…so its unlikely a UK fleet of any size will make it into the Med. The Med should be closed by the Axis and Malta take with no effort. If the UK does venture into the Med, Germany can destroy it or render it useless, and trap it if Gibraltar is in German hands for a follow up Italian fleet/air attack.
I as UK would leave Malta empty, try to defend Egypt as best as possible, build an IC in S. Africa, keep the UK fleet intact and build it up.
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The UK starts with a minor IC in south africa.
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I as UK would leave Malta empty, try to defend Egypt as best as possible, build an IC in S. Africa, keep the UK fleet intact and build it up.
My thoughts exactly. If you reinforce Malta with fighters or infantry, the Axis can just bypass it and attack a smaller force, than would otherwise be, in Egypt, which is their main objective in the Med anyway. Egypt should be considered first.
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I as UK would leave Malta empty, try to defend Egypt as best as possible, build an IC in S. Africa, keep the UK fleet intact and build it up.
My thoughts exactly. If you reinforce Malta with fighters or infantry, the Axis can just bypass it and attack a smaller force, than would otherwise be, in Egypt, which is their main objective in the Med anyway. Egypt should be considered first.
I’m not sure of the viability of this all (that’s why we play the game), but I don’t think Italy can bypass a fortified Malta that easily. Consider the scenario I broached before. Around turn 3 with 2 infantry, 4 fighters/Tac Bombers, and an airbase on Malta. Those fighters can reach almost the entire Med, and they allow UK based bombers to reach the Western and Central Med. That means that Italy will have operations curtailed (you can no longer move just anywhere) even after reinforcing its navy. Additionally, the fighter cover allows the Brits to potentially to base a navy out of Malta and threaten the whole Med, or UK and US transports can move to Gibraltar on one turn, then Malta on the next to land troops in Libya or threaten Southern Europe.
Italy may be able to counter these, and some of them may be overreaching, but all of them look interesting to me and you can be sure I’m going to be trying some of them out, and that’s what I love about this game. I see opportunities like this all over the map.
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I’m not sure of the viability of this all (that’s why we play the game), but I don’t think Italy can bypass a fortified Malta that easily.
Italy may be able to counter these, and some of them may be overreaching, but all of them look interesting to me and you can be sure I’m going to be trying some of them out, and that’s what I love about this game. I see opportunities like this all over the map.
Oh, no, I agree that Italy cannot ignore a fortified Malta, and having a fortified Malta could be a very good idea. My main point is that it might be hard to fortify… Hard as in the UK will have many competing places for their units to go; Malta probably being one of the territories deserving less attention. Malta would be good as an offensive outpost, but not a defensive point. (If the UK puts a bunch of planes in Malta, when the Italians attack somewhere else, the planes cannot lend their superior defensive rolls to the territory under attack… such as Egypt.) As long as Italy can take Egypt quickly, they might be able to ignore a fortified Malta for a little while.
I don’t know about all of this… it is just intuitive supposition. I appreciate the debate though, as it is making me think about it early. I am very to happy to have all of these options though, as you said Baron… it makes the game more interesting.
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Oh, no, I agree that Italy cannot ignore a fortified Malta, and having a fortified Malta could be a very good idea. My main point is that it might be hard to fortify… Hard as in the UK will have many competing places for their units to go; Malta probably being one of the territories deserving less attention. Malta would be good as an offensive outpost, but not a defensive point. (If the UK puts a bunch of planes in Malta, when the Italians attack somewhere else, the planes cannot lend their superior defensive rolls to the territory under attack… such as Egypt.) As long as Italy can take Egypt quickly, they might be able to ignore a fortified Malta for a little while.
I don’t know about all of this… it is just intuitive supposition. I appreciate the debate though, as it is making me think about it early. I am very to happy to have all of these options though, as you said Baron… it makes the game more interesting.
Fair point. I think we only disagree in our estimates of what the cost/benefit ratio will be. My best guess is that it will be a potentially viable strategy, but only if Italy decides to not cut it off on the first turn or two. If they do cut it off, then at least you’ve slowed down their assault on Egypt.
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Fair point. I think we only disagree in our estimates of what the cost/benefit ratio will be. My best guess is that it will be a potentially viable strategy, but only if Italy decides to not cut it off on the first turn or two. If they do cut it off, then at least you’ve slowed down their assault on Egypt.
True. Britain does still go before Italy… correct? If so, that will certainly help the UK’s situation and options.
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The Important thing to remember is that Africa and the middle east holds a good chunk of the British economy, and Egypt is the gateway to these rich areas. Britian has 29ipcs to start, while Italy has only 10, which means Britian can afford some losses while the Italians can not. If Britian can use Malta to hold the Italians in place, or waste a turn or 2 and some of its precious resources, trying to clear it, then she can reinforce her position in Egypt. When this happens the game is pretty much up for the Italians.
Italy has 2 options, either break the Brits in Egypt, or be stuck on the mainland of Europe. Malta my be key to keeping Italy out of Egypt
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Malta my be key to keeping Italy out of Egypt
It’s possible… It would be great if it works out as it did historically. (Malta’s worth/importance that is.)
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I’m not sure of the viability of this all (that’s why we play the game), but I don’t think Italy can bypass a fortified Malta that easily. Consider the scenario I broached before. Around turn 3 with 2 infantry, 4 fighters/Tac Bombers, and an airbase on Malta.
As UK, how much consideration do you give to what Germany does or will do? This game is not UK vs Italy. I dont see how UK gets 2 INF into Malta, and if they do, at what cost? Would it be better for UK to have two extra INF in Egypt? As to the FTR’s/TAC bombers…do you mean 4 in total or 4 of each? Either way is Malta really the best place for those aircraft?..are you assuming Egypt is Italian at that point? And if you think Malta is the best place for those expensive and valuable units, how long do they sit there (assuming the Italian fleet is sunk)?..would they not be better off in India, USSR, Africa, or on CV’s somewhere?
Two other points, 1. Once Italy has taken Egypt and Italy has a producing factory there, the Italian fleet is less useful since their primary objective of protecting the transport of units out of Italy has become less necessary. 2. Beware Japanese getting a large number of aircraft into the European theatre…its very easy for them to do, and they can do it fairly early. I think the global set up has to be changed dramatically because of their number of aircraft(28?).
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As UK, how much consideration do you give to what Germany does or will do? This game is not UK vs Italy. I dont see how UK gets 2 INF into Malta, and if they do, at what cost? Would it be better for UK to have two extra INF in Egypt? As to the FTR’s/TAC bombers…do you mean 4 in total or 4 of each? Either way is Malta really the best place for those aircraft?..are you assuming Egypt is Italian at that point? And if you think Malta is the best place for those expensive and valuable units, how long do they sit there (assuming the Italian fleet is sunk)?..would they not be better off in India, USSR, Africa, or on CV’s somewhere?
Two other points, 1. Once Italy has taken Egypt and Italy has a producing factory there, the Italian fleet is less useful since their primary objective of protecting the transport of units out of Italy has become less necessary. 2. Beware Japanese getting a large number of aircraft into the European theatre…its very easy for them to do, and they can do it fairly early. I think the global set up has to be changed dramatically because of their number of aircraft(28?).
You are right to think about Germany. It’s not that I’ve forgotten about them, it’s just that I believe that for the first few turns, most of the interaction will be Naval. On Germany’s first turn, they will be capturing France and some Eastern European Neutrals, and destroying targets of opportunity (Mainly as much of the UK navy as they can reach). On turn two, they will be (possibly) finishing the capture of France and setting up for either Barbarossa or Sea Lion. If it’s the latter, then for UK it’s “all hands on deck” for defense. If it’s the former, then I don’t think UK will be nearly strong enough to think about attacking the continent yet, so their battlegrounds will be the Battle of the North Atlantic (please, oh please) and Africa, where (with the Middle East) the majority of their income is located. In that case, I believe that Fortress Malta will be one of several viable options (and yes, obviously that would incur sacrifices on other fronts). The cost of assembling the fortress is 4 fighters (one from Alexandria, one from the carrier, and two from UK) two infantry from UK, and a transport. You make the setup moves on UK1. If Germany threatens Sea Lion or Italy preemptively takes Malta, then you can call an audible and send your forces back to UK. No new production is required other than the airbase, it’s all with on board units.
To answer your other questions, it’s four aircraft total, and the two infantry would have to be from UK (I don’t think there’s a transport near Egypt that could bring infantry from over there, and I agree that it would be defeating the purpose of reinforcing Malta anyway). Once the Italian fleet is sunk, obviously they’ve accomplished their mission. You make the choice then on whether to send them to other theaters or keep them there to prevent Italy rebuilding their navy.
EDIT: Forgot that you have to build the airbase
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If I could see the SZ’s better in the photos I could form a better reply, but the Germans have 5 subs out there. Germany and Italy can take out all three French land areas on their first turns. Germany can take France/Holland&Bel with no aircraft if they wanted to do that(not saying I would use 0 aircraft…but for sure use the air that can not attack UK naval units)…and use whatever Luftwaffe is within range in combo with SUBS where I can. Its possible all the UK TRS are sunk on the first turn, and it could be difficult for UK to build any TRS on their first turn. The Germans will move the Luftwaffe closer to the Med and Atlantic as they advance in the direction of Gibraltar. I think it would be suicide for UK to try to get land units into Malta.
Do you really want to move the FTR out of Egypt?..and if UK abandons(or reduces) Egypt, then I would imagine that FTR going somewhere other than Malta(India, S. Africa?). It would take two turns to get the FTR’s from UK to Malta. I just dont see doing this. If the global game started with something in Malta(1 INF, 1 FTR, and 1 SUB in the SZ, AB), then I could see a possible opportunity to do what you want, but even then I’d be very tempted to send the FTR in Malta to Egypt. UK building an airbase in Malta is like building it for Italy. I think a competant Axis player would force a competant Allied player to abandon any idea of sending units to Malta, and if the Allied player did this, force the Allied player to pay a high cost…ie, losing Egypt, losing Malta, and the units UK used in the adventure.
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If I could see the SZ’s better in the photos I could form a better reply, but the Germans have 5 subs out there. Germany and Italy can take out all three French land areas on their first turns. Germany can take France/Holland&Bel with no aircraft if they wanted to do that(not saying I would use 0 aircraft…but for sure use the air that can not attack UK naval units)…and use whatever Luftwaffe is within range in combo with SUBS where I can. Its possible all the UK TRS are sunk on the first turn, and it could be difficult for UK to build any TRS on their first turn. The Germans will move the Luftwaffe closer to the Med and Atlantic as they advance in the direction of Gibraltar. I think it would be suicide for UK to try to get land units into Malta.
Do you really want to move the FTR out of Egypt?..and if UK abandons(or reduces) Egypt, then I would imagine that FTR going somewhere other than Malta(India, S. Africa?). It would take two turns to get the FTR’s from UK to Malta. I just dont see doing this. If the global game started with something in Malta(1 INF, 1 FTR, and 1 SUB in the SZ, AB), then I could see a possible opportunity to do what you want, but even then I’d be very tempted to send the FTR in Malta to Egypt. UK building an airbase in Malta is like building it for Italy. I think a competant Axis player would force a competant Allied player to abandon any idea of sending units to Malta, and if the Allied player did this, force the Allied player to pay a high cost…ie, losing Egypt, losing Malta, and the units UK used in the adventure.
As you said, we could debate better if we knew knew the map better and the unit placements with more confidence. And yes, the Germans certainly have the potential to attack every UK transport, which (if successful) would put a crimp in the Fortress Malta strategy. I’m not advocating this as a “be all and end all” strategy, just one that I think has a lot of potential if the cards fall your way. Germany may want to concentrate on taking out the UK Battleship. They might want to get as many subs as possible into the South Atlantic to exploit those juicy convoy zones. They may get horribly unlucky. Whatever the case, if UK keeps a transport alive, they can threaten a UK2 Malta Fortress on turn 1, forcing Italy to either take Malta and disrupt their Africa plans or deal with the consequences. If the strategy is powerful, the I see this as a way for the UK to “juke” Italy into a suboptimal play every game without having to really commit anything.
As for your other questions, if I can establish Fortress Malta, I would absolutely rather have the plane there than in Alexandria. UK moves first, and has a bit of buffer in this game, so as long as you’re smart, it should be several turns before Egypt falls. Then, if Italy has to spend money building a navy rather than ground units, I’ve succeeded.
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From my experience playing Britian in past games Malta was very important in securing N Africa. any time i built an IC on Egypt B1, it was lost to Germany. I would build in S Africa. This game starts out with minor IC S Africa, Great!. The only reason you need Malta fortified is to protect aircraft and make Italy think twice about doing it. if they do, you just distracted them from N Africa for 1 turn, Great!
I eventually took bombers that were sitting in England doing nothing becouse Germany had too many fighters as interceptors to make SBRs work, i sent them down to malta via Gibralter. now, with the 2 fighters i already had on Malta previously, and now 2 bombers, i was able to significantly disrupt the flow on Italian transports in the MED, ultimately easing the pressure on Brit troops in N Africa and allowing time to shuffle up reinforcments from S Africa. Not only that when my bombers werent sinking transports, i was bouncing the bombers down into N Africa to add punch to Brit attacks. Does anyone agree with this, IT WORKS. AND YES MALTA IS VITAL@! -
It seems you are kinda counting on your Italian opponent to take his eye off his primary objective(Egypt). Once Egypt is Italian and they have built an IC there, the Italian fleet is less important…but with 1BB, 2CA’s, 1 DD…it will take quite a bit of airpower to take it all out…making Malta weaker too of the air comes from there.
The smart UK move on its first turn would be to keep 1 INF in Alexandria and move everything it can into Egypt. If it looks like a close call you can defend Egypt, but if Italy has what it needs to take Egypt on turn 2, you might want to preserve the UK units and slow down the Axis in Africa…evacuate Egypt(-1 INF) and keep moving southwards until your units built in S. Africa can meet you coming north(send the FTR to Malta in your scenario?).
With the unit strengths the way they are now, Italy can take Egypt turn 2. If UK has 5 FTRs and 1 TAC in Malta(again, I highly doubt you get INF into Malta, and even if you could it would’nt be worth it…Germany will destroy any fleet UK can get there by turn 3), the Axis can take Malta with a one-two punch from Germany(air)-Italy(invasion+air) on turn 3…and now there is no RAF, unless you built air the first two turns anticipating these losses. So if you want to do a Malta gambit, you might want to build heavy on air as UK and little else…and have to live with a very small Royal Navy for a while.
It looks like a fun game, and especially so when there is disagreement. Too bad we cant prove our positions;-(
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i know, im dying to play it out and see what happens. hey miamibeach, greeting from Tampa.
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See, thats why I made my profile name “miamibeach” so I might attract the attention of someone nearby;-) Actually, on occasion I am in Pinellas County. Are you part of a group of wargamers, or solo?
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just got to FL. in May. relocated from NJ. havent even thought to find anyone yet. but all this talk and with AAE40 coming out im starting to itch. i have ILs deluxe world at War 39 to 45 map. its 4ft x 8ft. its sick!
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What is ILs World at War? I play World in Flames by ADG…the best WWII game created(that I know about). Its probably the most popular too with 4 world-wide annual cons(Germany, Australia, California, and Michigan). There is a very active Yahoo support list/group, and Matrix Games is working on a computer version…probably out in about two years.
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