Why do people compare Napoleon to Hitler?


  • @Imperious:

    Exactly. Napoleon the despot was the determining factor. The Spanish people didn’t accept a French ruler but really had little choice.

    You misunderstand why the Peninsular War happened. Even that was not an aggressive move on Napoleon’s part. One has to be cautious when making simplistic judgments of saying he invaded because he wanted to close down Europe to the Continental System.

    It started with an appeal for Napoleon’s arbitration by King Charles IV, a degenerate Bourbon dominated by his wife and her lover, Godoy, who was Prime Minister. There was the influence of Talleyrand, Napoleon’s ex-foreign minister, who favored the expulsion of the Bourbons from all thrones and the accession of a prince from the Bonaparte family to the Spanish throne. There was also the irritation of a sovereign (guess who, Napoleon) who was engaged in a struggle to the death for his security and who realized that there was a door on the Iberian Peninsula still open to trade with the British. The only real mistake Napoleon made was misjudging the Spanish people, so proud, so noble, so independent, prepared to make any sacrifice and to rise up as one against any foreign interference. Events moved so quickly that once hostilities had begun it was impossible to change policy.

    Madrid revolted (against the government, not against the French, whom they were not yet hostile against), and the people, drunk with fury, seized Godoy, threatening to kill him. Charles IV abdicated in favor of his son, and then retracted his abdication. Napoleon then had to decide between the king and the son as they exchanged insults in front of him at Bayonne. Charles IV named Murat, one of Napoleon’s Marshals, lieutenant general of the kingdom but, learning of a new uprising in Madrid (which Murat brutally took down, a brutality that Napoleon very much disapproved of), abdicated definitely in favor of “the great Napoleon” after a nasty scene with his wife and his son, and received in exchange a civil list and residence in France. Joseph Bonaparte was named king of Spain, but receiving a throne as a promotion and occupying the throne–-when the throne was that of Spain—were two different things!

    The Peninsular War was definitely Napoleon’s biggest mistake (not his invasion of Russia), but he, as always, was not the only one responsible for it. The British were responsible for trying to return to the Continent by way of Spain; the Spanish royal family were responsible for being so inefficient and for their inability to run a country properly. Napoleon was responsible for even agreeing to mediate affairs at all.

    Napoleon also took advantage of The french economic position which was just as poor as it was before the revolution to take power, not unlike Hitler except Hitler was elected and appointed to his first position.

    Hmmm, so now you want to talk politics at that time too eh? Very well!  :-D

    Two things:

    1)Napoleon did not simply take advantage of the “French economic system”. He never sought to take power in France until he was involved in a conspiracy to overthrow it and he realized that France needed a strong, central leader, not a “government of lawyers” as the Directory was called. Napoleon turned the French economy around in only a year. Even in 1814, when the Coalition was on France’s doorstep, France had little debt.

    2)Napoleon was also elected and appointed to his position, but unlike Hitler he did not acquire that position via blackmail, backstabbing, and assassination. When he was First Consul Napoleon was not a dictator. Although that all-powerful position of First Consul had the power to propose legislation, it was the specialized sections of the Council of State that wrote them: finance, legislation, war, navy, interior. There was no secrecy; the ministers attended the meetings and the consuls’ approval was required to enact a law. And what a sense of human relations the First Consul showed as he participated in the meetings of the Council, asking questions and encouraging discussion! In what democracy today do we find the head of state discussing and arguing about the country’s affairs with the citizens’ elite in this way? Where do we find that in Hitler’s tyranny?

    Another political necessity was the Constitution of the Year XII, which established the French Empire with Napoleon as Emperor. This was a normal development of a strong regime; as the Emperor became more sure of himself, he showed less and less tolerance towards people who “talk but do not do anything”, and indeed became increasingly authoritarian. The legislative assembly became a mere recording chamber and the Senate was filled with people devoted to the Emperor. This was a logical consequence that the Nation, by a substantial majority, gave the only man who could save it. “The Nation threw itself at my feet when I arrived in government,” Napoleon said. “I took less authority then I was asked to take.”

    But before crying dictatorship and condemning out of hand an authoritarianism that partially muzzled the democratic system of universal suffrage (which existed in no European country that that time), it’s important to go back to the role of the important Council of State, the basis of the legislative system. The council members, senior officials, and auditors made up a extraordinary body, surprising its worth and technical skill. It dealt with all bills, gave its opinions, and ruled on appeals addressed to the Emperor. Twice a week the Emperor chaired the meetings. The prescence of the man whose law ruled from the Atlantic to the plains of Poland did not inhibit those attending. On the contrary, the legislative policy of France was enacted there without the least absolutism, and in a way, it was the entire government.

    Hitler only gave more and more political power to himself and to himself only. Hitler restricted basic rights and if you practiced a religion that he did not like, you were probably going to die. The Napoleonic Code encouraged the practice of religion and basic rights, which is why it’s the foundations of law for much of Western Europe.

    Latter he maintained his hold upon the people with military victories. That is what Hitler did. He made a few victories to keep the people thinking that war could solve the national problems and victory carried his power further.

    His position as First Consul certainly was strengthened with his reputation as a victorious general, but the stability of the government did not rest on victories alone. Otherwise, why did his government still function and why was he still popular after the first major French check at Eylau in 1807?

    When Napoleon lost his Grande Army his support began to falter, just as the Opposition to Hitler mounted after Stalingrad.

    This might be true. But there’s one huge difference between this. Today, Napoleon is seen as a hero and a man of the people in Western Europe. True, there might be people who also hate him for his supposed “tyranny”, but the man is as loved as he is hated. Hitler is, overwhelmingly, hated by the majority of civilization, worshiped only by fringe neo-Nazis groups. It is extremely difficult to form an objective view of Hitler: for Napoleon, as you can see above, is not.

    Also, his support might have faltered, but the French people realized just how much their Emperor was a better ruler than the Bourbons who learned nothing from the Revolution.

    And by his Heirs that continues far beyond the demise of Napoleon. Napoleon III was also a dictator who used his name to usurp power borrowed from the exploits of Napoleon I. He go the support of the people and threw out the opposition, like Hitler. He also took over Mexico. I don’t remember the Mexicans holding an election for a French ruler?

    Napoleon III was an efficient ruler and greatly improved the prestige of France. He was not, however, like Napoleon I. He could indeed be called a dictator, unlike Napoleon I. That does not mean, however, that he was as bad as that monster Hitler.


  • You haven’t shown how the Brits were trying to reenter via Spain.

    Also, I LOLed when you said Napoleon III increased French presitige. Franco-Prussian war anyone?


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    Also, I LOLed when you said Napoleon III increased French presitige. Franco-Prussian war anyone?

    You seem to assume that the Franco-Prussian War happened immediately after Napoleon III took power.  :roll:

    You haven’t shown how the Brits were trying to reenter via Spain.

    Let’s see. By 1808 Spain was on the brink of civil war, with one side (Charles IV) being nothing but a puppet for the real powers of Spain (Godoy), and with the other one who hated France, Napoleon, and the Revolution (Ferdinand). Do you really think that once Ferdinand was in power the British would not try to get Spain to join the anti-French crusade?

    Let me give you an example of the British determination and will to intervene not just in Spanish affairs but in general Iberian affairs. In 1807 Napoleon was determined to close down all trade to Continental Europe from Britain. Since Portugal was still maintaining a lively trade with Britain, Napoleon quite bluntly asked them to join the Continental System or would be considered an enemy of France. Harsh, but remember his iron will to try to destroy Britain economically comes from the fact that Britain rejected multiple offers of peace and negotiation from Napoleon since 1803.

    A Franco-Spanish force invaded Portugal once they refused to close down to British trade. When the French were approaching Lisbon the current Portugese regent, John VI, expressed the desire to negotiate with the French commander (Junot), and to possibly negotiate further with Napoleon on the Continental System, but the British commander of the Royal Navy, Admiral Parker, told him that if that was the case, he had orders to seize the Portugese fleet and burn and bombard Lisbon. Basically they had threatened to do the same thing to Lisbon as they did to Cophenhagen, once in 1801 and again in 1807, except on a much larger scale. Thus the Portugese fleet and treasure sailed from Lisbon under Royal Navy escort, with their destination at Brazil.

    Clearly the acts of a government that was fighting the “tyranny” of Napoleon and wanting to bring “peace” to Europe: burning or threatning to burn capitals of nations that either would not abide by Britain’s policy or would be willing to abide by Napoleon’s policy. Where do you see Napoleon threatening to burn entire cities? Citing Moscow is a mistake: he never sent the order to burn it, and even if he did that would be completely unlike him: why set fire to a city that could serve as winter quarters for his army?

    I don’t deny that the Peninsular War is not Napoleon’s fault. It is, but only partly.

    @Octospire:

    As far as the British making him fight defensive wars I dont really think that is the case, Napoleon was stirring up trouble all over Britains empire, in India, Canada and the former colony of the United States. Napoleon made the mistake of thinking he could defeat the British in a global war and win the war against the kingdoms of Europe much like Hitler he made the mistake of fighting the war on too many fronts with limited resources.

    What? Napoleon never fought Britain in Canada, India, or the United States.


  • Well, Napoleon threatened to invade Portugal which is arguably just as bad.


  • @UN:

    @Octospire:

    As far as the British making him fight defensive wars I dont really think that is the case, Napoleon was stirring up trouble all over Britains empire, in India, Canada and the former colony of the United States. Napoleon made the mistake of thinking he could defeat the British in a global war and win the war against the kingdoms of Europe much like Hitler he made the mistake of fighting the war on too many fronts with limited resources.

    What? Napoleon never fought Britain in Canada, India, or the United States.

    Not fought, stirred up trouble. Napoleon or more correctly the French gave the Americans the idea that they could invade and annex Canada hence the war of 1812, there by diverting British resources away from campaigns in continental Europe. Also during Napoleon’s rule the French tried to insight revolution in idea with very little success as most Indians realised they would be trading one foreign master for another.

    So while not taking any direct military action the French and so therefore Napoleon managed to fight a not so covert war against British dominions.


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    Well, Napoleon threatened to invade Portugal which is arguably just as bad.

    As I said, he might have expressed his intentions somewhat bluntly and tactlessly. After all he had told the Portugese diplomat:

    “I will not tolerate a single English representative in Europe. If Portugal does not do as I wish, the house of Braganza will no longer reign in Europe two months hence.”

    But again, calvin, this all stems from the inability of the British government to make peace or even negotiate with Napoleonic France in any way. All offers of some sort of compromise and peace offerings were all rejected by the British. Napoleon realized that if he could not exorcise the demon of war in its own cave (i.e. invading Britain), then he should strangle it economically. I’m not saying the Continental System was good. Napoleon was quite aware of its negative effects on his allies and even closed his eyes to certain discrepancies. But if I was him, I would also certainly have a much more determined will to force England to come to terms after multiple rejections of peace, wouldn’t you think?

    Not fought, stirred up trouble. Napoleon or more correctly the French gave the Americans the idea that they could invade and annex Canada hence the war of 1812, there by diverting British resources away from campaigns in continental Europe. Also during Napoleon’s rule the French tried to insight revolution in idea with very little success as most Indians realised they would be trading one foreign master for another.

    So while not taking any direct military action the French and so therefore Napoleon managed to fight a not so covert war against British dominions.

    I’m not really sure if the War of 1812 was really caused by Napoleon directly, or even Imperial France. The forced conscription of American sailors into the Royal Navy had a much bigger part of it, as was the British sending military support to certain Native American tribes.


  • I’m not saying the threat is unjustified. I’m just saying that it is about as justified as the British threat to burn Lisbon.


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    I’m not saying the threat is unjustified. I’m just saying that it is about as justified as the British threat to burn Lisbon.

    An invasion of Portugal does not mean that the French will simply pillage and plunder and burn its way through the countryside. Napoleon despised that sort of horrifying way of waging war first off, and when he occupied Portugal he did not threaten to burn a defenseless city. The British directly threatened to burn Lisbon, which is not the same as conducting an invasion. Anything can happen in an “invasion”.

    Plus, as I had stated, the Royal Navy’s record wasn’t exactly clean before that, what with bombarding Copenhagen TWICE in 1801 and 1807 and seizing the Danish fleet.


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    Well, Napoleon threatened to invade Portugal which is arguably just as bad.

    Why didn’t he?


  • @Dylan:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Well, Napoleon threatened to invade Portugal which is arguably just as bad.

    Why didn’t he?

    France and Spain did invade Portugal, but did not burn and bombard it, as the British navy had threatened to do with Lisbon.


  • haha
    even better
    Napoleon invaded russia 23th of June, Hitler the 22th XD


  • @Frontovik:

    haha
    even better
    Napoleon invaded russia 23th of June, Hitler the 22th XD

    Rather it be June than December 23!


  • Napoleon invaded russia 23th of June, Hitler the 22th XD

    That just proves they were reincarnations of each other. They make the same moves and get the same results.


  • @Imperious:

    Napoleon invaded russia 23th of June, Hitler the 22th XD

    That just proves they were reincarnations of each other. They make the same moves and get the same results.

    Why would that prove anything about reincarnations? June is simply the best time to invade a country like Russia. Or perhaps Hitler studied Napoleon’s invasion and placed it around the same date for whatever deluded reason.

    Also, the original date for Barbarossa was to be May 15, 1941. They invaded Russia for two entirely different reasons, one was right to invade, the other invading merely for “living space”.

    And another thing: the French invaded on the 24th.


  • UN, I have a somewhat unrelated question. After Trafalgar, why couldn’t Britain amphibiously invade France?


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    UN, I have a somewhat unrelated question. After Trafalgar, why couldn’t Britain amphibiously invade France?

    Well, having failed in its attempts in 1793 and 1799, Napoleon was pretty confident they wouldn’t try to invade Holland or France anytime soon. There were 40,000 men of the 3rd and Depot battalions of the Grande Armee stationed in France, strengthened by a further 30,000 National Guards and conscripts. The British Army was spread all across the Empire; Canada, India, in Sicily as well. In 1793 its strength was barely 40,000 and by 1805 little had changed of that number (though by 1813 the Army was up to about 250,000). And on the other side of the coin the British spent much of its military spending on the Royal Navy.

    Actually, if the French had successfully invaded Britain, I doubt the British Army would have been able to defeat it in an up-front battle. Sure, the Royal Navy might cut them off, but Napoleon made the necessary plans for the Grande Armee to survive independently for quite an extended period of time before it required supplies in England.


  • Ah yes, its army is, as usual, way inferior to its navy.


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    Ah yes, its army is, as usual, way inferior to its navy.

    Quite. But by 1813 and 1814 it had improved remarkably, filled with veterans of the Peninsular War. Plus, the British Army was one of the only, if not THE only, Army to have not suffered a major defeat by Napoleon.


  • @UN:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Ah yes, its army is, as usual, way inferior to its navy.

    Quite. But by 1813 and 1814 it had improved remarkably, filled with veterans of the Peninsular War. Plus, the British Army was one of the only, if not THE only, Army to have not suffered a major defeat by Napoleon.

    Probably because it hadn’t fought on land yet until Waterloo? Is there any other major battle involving the British army?


  • @calvinhobbesliker:

    @UN:

    @calvinhobbesliker:

    Ah yes, its army is, as usual, way inferior to its navy.

    Quite. But by 1813 and 1814 it had improved remarkably, filled with veterans of the Peninsular War. Plus, the British Army was one of the only, if not THE only, Army to have not suffered a major defeat by Napoleon.

    Probably because it hadn’t fought on land yet until Waterloo? Is there any other major battle involving the British army?

    Well, you had the constant rebellions and quarrels going on in India (which is actually what Wellington was doing before he got involved in Spain), you had the War of 1812, and I recall the British being expelled from Buenos Aires by the Spanish sometime in 1804 or 1805, can’t remember when specifically.

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