@hengst not wasted at all. Repetition is what fine tunes these scenarios to make them the best they can be. Keep up the good work
IL's Axis and Allies Global 1939 and 1942 files
-
I thought it was obvious i was refering to the first three turns, and its still wierd and not accurate for there to be a magical wall for the first three turns and then it goes away for only one side on the fourth.
If the IPCs are accuarte and the attack across the Soviet-Japanese border is usually a mistake, then why have the restriction in the firstplace.
And you have done a nice job of adding tons of territories in siberia so why are you worried that Japan is going to take moscow?
-
I thought it was obvious i was refering to the first three turns, and its still wierd and not accurate for there to be a magical wall for the first three turns and then it goes away for only one side on the fourth.
Because it took this time for japan to recoup and even consider such an attack again ( Japanese army considered it, but realized it meant nothing for japans future as a world power).
Plus The Soviets have a nice sized army on that border. Japan could not even try it till turn 2.
If the IPCs are accuarte and the attack across the Soviet-Japanese border is usually a mistake, then why have the restriction in the firstplace.
To make it more historical and provide balance against glitches for ahistorical players playing like robots with calculators and perfectly coordinating German and Japanese movement and landing the Japanese air force in Caucasus and other places to glitch the game with even more ahistorical nonsense. This game is meant for 4 players or more and not 2 players treating 3 nations as one super nation.
And you have done a nice job of adding tons of territories in siberia so why are you worried that Japan is going to take moscow?
Because people will try anyway and id like to watch their plans fail miserably, trying old AAR strategies that don’t apply in this version. This game forces players to invent a new concept and not rehash old ideas based on design mistakes that broad-brush a bit too much historical realism away from actual capabilities. Artificially, at least the extra spaces represent the rugged terrain… and futility of attempting to move in that direction. Japan must concern itself with pacific, but it can try for Russia, but will lose. I keep this dream alive only long enough for players to understand the futility in this dream. China is much more in Japans grasp and it will take a long war to finish them off too.
-
@Imperious:
Because people will try anyway and id like to watch their plans fail miserably, trying old AAR strategies that don’t apply in this version. This game forces players to invent a new concept and not rehash old ideas based on design mistakes that broad-brush a bit too much historical realism away from actual capabilities. Artificially, at least the extra spaces represent the rugged terrain… and futility of attempting to move in that direction. Japan must concern itself with pacific, but it can try for Russia, but will lose. I keep this dream alive only long enough for players to understand the futility in this dream. China is much more in Japans grasp and it will take a long war to finish them off too.
Exactly, so why does there need to be the non-aggression rule?
-
Exactly, so why does there need to be the non-aggression rule?
Well put…
-
So the game does not get:
-
unrealistic ( ahistorical)
-
number crunchers cant find a way to glitch the system ( like what Japan does by attacking on J1 in AAP40)
The time frame of 4 turns reflect the period of Late 1941, where japan last took a look at entering the war and considered at attack on Russia. This game allows this option, when before it Japan was not capable even to fight a limited war before late 1941. And she wasn’t so its not artificial. If you consider Japans position in 1939- 1941, they didn’t develop enough to sustain for a general war and even got bogged down in China.
Do you think the game should start in 1920 with Hitler getting ready to invade USA? NO because they were not ready then. same reason. Same reason why Hitler could not attack Russia in 1939, or Invade England in 1936, or land on the moon in 1945.
- In the summer of 1939, Marshal Zhukov gave the Japanese forces such a pasting that they never again thought about venturing into Russia.
This was what happened before the game starts. The current history prior to the start of the game becomes part of the political situation and possibilities in this game. So Japan is not prepared for attacking the Soviets till they can also be prepared for attacking USA. They can choose one or both. Choosing the later will cost them a game.
-
-
But you already said that it is stupid for Japan to attack the Soviets because of the number of territores and units they would have to deal with. So why add the non-aggresion rule.
Like you point out there are accual reasons Japan didnt attack the Soviets, so why not model that in the game?
-
Because i want this security by modeling the distance as well because the extra spaces in between model the rugged terrain better than the rule.
So in other words i don’t want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
-
@Imperious:
Because i want this security by modeling the distance as well because the extra spaces in between model the rugged terrain better than the rule.
So in other words i don’t want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
But the political reality is a result of the geography and the order of battle, so it seems like your overkilling it.
-
Well play it out and you will see why it is the way it is.
I didn’t give US the Atomic bomb either, because it wasn’t ready for one, much like Japan was not ready to attack anybody till turn 4, or Russia can’t attack Germany before turn 3, Or because a number of other things do not happen because its not the way it was 1939-45.
I model terrain by placement of the territories ( number of spaces on land from point a to b)
I model setup with quality of troops
I model political factors by KISS rules
-
Ok, but what about not allowing naval and air units to blast away infantry, that seems pretty KISS to me.
And what about giving Italy its own victory conditions so that there is a little tension between the il duce and the fuhrer.
-
Ok, but what about not allowing naval and air units to blast away infantry, that seems pretty KISS to me.
And what about giving Italy its own victory conditions so that there is a little tension between the il duce and the fuhrer.
Play it the way its written first, THEN see how that could work.
Eliminating SB rules is not good, the defense now has fortifications and the offense needs that small advantage. Both sides need the ‘ying and yang’ to present these options add flavor.
-
So in other words i don’t want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
Hum…Not sure if you realy understood the political reality of pre-dec 1941.
You just fix the a game as you see it.
You did’t give the oportunity to the player to change the curse of history.But the political reality is a result of the geography and the order of battle, so it seems like your overkilling it.
Exactly…Much like Japan was not ready to attack anybody till turn 4,
Ah…and what about China? A distraction? Japan army was rady to make war and got more experience than any other army. -
So in other words i don’t want players to waste time trying it because its stupid, both physically and historically. Thats why i need the rule to make it more than physical, but to model the political reality of pre-Dec 1941.
Hum…Not sure if you realy understood the political reality of pre-dec 1941.
You just fix the a game as you see it.
You did’t give the oportunity to the player to change the curse of history.No i didn’t give Adolf the A- bomb, or flying saucers either. I gave the game realistic potential and not whitewash a treatment of what is clearly possible with what is impossible.
But the political reality is a result of the geography and the order of battle, so it seems like your overkilling it.
Exactly…Much like Japan was not ready to attack anybody till turn 4,
Ah…and what about China? A distraction? Japan army was rady to make war and got more experience than any other army.Japan must fight with all she has against China for turns 1-2 and on turn 3 prepare for war with UK and USA…. historical.
Did you play the game? Did you read the rules? Did you notice where japan is economically on turn 1? Did you consider the set up?
If you want to change the rules and just let anybody do whatever they please, then why stop at Japan can’t attack russia till turn 4?
Give Adolf the Atomic weaponry in 1939, so you an satiate “the what if” and give him his UFO’s too.
Let USA start at war with japan in 1939 and Russia start at war in 1939 against Germany. Whats holding anything back?
Heck why not?
Add in Godzilla, because dinosaurs still live inside the earth… waiting to be released from volcanoes and earthquakes.
Sure why not?
Why not have USA and Germany team up to fight the world too?
Its possible…
It would be of great benefit to comment only after you play this version. This version is realistic and you can still do things you like, except they will prove to be poor moves.
Have Japan attack USA on turn 1
Have Germany attack Russia on G1
give everybody all tech at start.
Or just stop worrying about “japan cant attack Russia till turn 4” and play the game.
-
No i didn’t give Adolf the A- bomb, or flying saucers either. I gave the game realistic potential and not whitewash a treatment of what is clearly possible with what is impossible.
Ah Ok, so a Sino-Russia conflict before 1940 is impossible!
At the end of summer 1939, Japanese goverment thought about war against USSR.
There was some partisan for a north strike (USSR) and others for a south strike.
They choose the south as you know but let the player decide…with let see… rolling dice?Funny…
I like that when you make irony.
Yes I would like to play a game against you. :evil:
However I’m afraid that you makes angry when my Japanese infantries are going to bang you up near Moscow! -
No i didn’t give Adolf the A- bomb, or flying saucers either. I gave the game realistic potential and not whitewash a treatment of what is clearly possible with what is impossible.
Ah Ok, so a Sino-Russia conflict before 1940 is impossible!
At the end of summer 1939, Japanese goverment thought about war against USSR.
There was some partisan for a north strike (USSR) and others for a south strike.
They choose the south as you know but let the player decide…with let see… rolling dice?No correction they fought in the summer and japan… lost big time. In my game that already occurred:
“From May to September 1939 Japan and the Soviet Union fought a fierce, large-scale undeclared war on the Mongolian plains that ended with a decisive Soviet victory with two important results: Japan reoriented its strategic emphasis toward the south, leading to war with the United States, Britain, and the Netherlands; and Russia freed itself from the fear of fighting on two fronts, thus vitally affecting the course of the war with Germany.”
"From this incident, the Japanese Army learned that there were serious shortcomings in its armored units as well as in its tactics. Strenuous efforts were made thereafter to remodel equipment and build up tanks and firepower, however, these remained uncompleted by the outbreak of the pacific war in 1942 "
“Even without such an apoplectic outcome, if Japan had not lost so badly, they might well have been tempted for a rematch in 1941, just in time to join Hitler.”
My game provides this possibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol
“Although this engagement is little-known in the West, it had profound implications on the conduct of World War II. It may be said to be the first decisive battle of World War II, because it determined that the two principal Axis Powers, Germany and Japan, would never geographically link up their areas of control through Russia. The defeat convinced the Imperial General Staff in Tokyo that the policy of the North Strike Group, favored by the army, which wanted to seize Siberia as far as Lake Baikal for its resources, was untenable. Instead the South Strike Group, favored by the navy, which wanted to seize the resources of Southeast Asia, especially the petroleum and mineral-rich Dutch East Indies, gained the ascendancy, leading directly to the attack on Pearl Harbor two and a half years later in December 1941. The Japanese would never make an offensive movement towards Russia again. In 1941, the two countries signed agreements respecting the borders of Mongolia and Manchukuo[25] and pledging neutrality towards each other.[26] They remained at peace until the Soviet conquest of Manchuria in August 1945, in the final weeks of the war.”Now since you didn’t find anything to attest to this claim that Japan was fully capable of attacking the Soviets a second time, we can assume these facts stand. Japan was in no position to engage for another attack anytime soon.
Thats why it’s not modeled in the game. History has proof of the non-aggression fact that they signed. I don’t understand why you argue about this, but not the idea that Russia can attack the Germans on R1, or US should be able to attack on US1?
I guess these are even more untenable concepts, but in reality a japanese attack against Russia is even more ridiculous on Sept 39.
-
IL can you explain marines and paratroopers to me I don’t understand.
-
Yea sure…
Pay 1 IPC for each ( do this during the build phase of the current turn), place token under these units to designate them
Airborne are just like OOB, both infantry and bomber start in same place, and fly and drop up to 2 spaces away from your friendly land unit. Bomber can also attack even if used in this manner.
AA guns roll on defense if any
Airborne attack at 2 and cant retreat and basically fight to the death.
After the turn is over they revert to normal infantry values
Marines are basically the same thing. Pay 1 IPC for each infantry you want to use and drop them off by transport
they attack at 2 and fight to the death
they revert to normal infantry on the following turn.
Thats it simple.
-
Thanks IL
-
I know perfectly the information that you wrote.
I don’t want to make debate I just expose the facts.
If you takes your information only on Wikipedia, i’m not surprise that you miss information.
In September, 1939, the Japanese high command was divided into two clan.
The officers of the land forces wished the affontement against the Soviet and had chosen the north strike.- they wanted their revenges after the defeat of august.
- Russia was the traditional enemy.
The navy wanted to attack in the South.
- They tought their navy was stronger than Royal Navy and US Navy.
- Put the hand on the oil in Asia.
- Cut the supplying of China by attacking Burma and Indo-China.
After a week of debates, Yosuke ( foreign secretaries) and the clan of the Imperial Navy won their point about the south strike and a cease of fire was signed September 15th, 1939.
The Imperial high command thus studied the plan for the north strike.
Yes, it was a risk.
Yes, red army had the advantage of the number.
Yes, the Japanese generals missed spirit of iniative.But Staline didn’t want the war with Japan because even if he had signed a pact with Germany, he didn’t trust Hitler. Stalin didn’t want to fight on two front because he knows tahnt his army was not ready for a total war.
In april 13th, 1941, Japan and the USSR signs a non-aggression pact but when Germany attacked the USSR in juner 1941, Imperial high command Imperial was again divided about the strategy has to follow…The North or the South?
The embargo of the oil by US goverment and Great Britain in august 1941 was going to seal the debate.
The Imperial staff had decided for a south strike.
Yes, an attack in the South was also very risky.
In fact, the Japanese strategy was to destroy US navy and Royal Navy in the pacfic in a short war to force the US goverment to negociate.
Their purpose was not to invade Washinton or Los Angeles!In the North, the strategy was not to invading all USSR territories or march over Moscow!
The goal was to force Staline to negociate as the victory of Japan over Russia in 1905. -
In September, 1939, the Japanese high command was divided into two clan.
The officers of the land forces wished the affontement against the Soviet and had chosen the north strike.- they wanted their revenges after the defeat of august.
- Russia was the traditional enemy.
The navy wanted to attack in the South.
- They tought their navy was stronger than Royal Navy and US Navy.
- Put the hand on the oil in Asia.
- Cut the supplying of China by attacking Burma and Indo-China.
After a week of debates, Yosuke ( foreign secretaries) and the clan of the Imperial Navy won their point about the south strike and a cease of fire was signed September 15th, 1939.
The Imperial high command thus studied the plan for the north strike.
Yes, it was a risk.
Yes, red army had the advantage of the number.
Yes, the Japanese generals missed spirit of iniative.But Staline didn’t want the war with Japan because even if he had signed a pact with Germany, he didn’t trust Hitler. Stalin didn’t want to fight on two front because he knows tahnt his army was not ready for a total war.
In april 13th, 1941, Japan and the USSR signs a non-aggression pact but when Germany attacked the USSR in juner 1941, Imperial high command Imperial was again divided about the strategy has to follow…The North or the South?
The embargo of the oil by US goverment and Great Britain in august 1941 was going to seal the debate.
The Imperial staff had decided for a south strike.
Yes, an attack in the South was also very risky.
In fact, the Japanese strategy was to destroy US navy and Royal Navy in the pacfic in a short war to force the US goverment to negociate.
Their purpose was not to invade Washinton or Los Angeles!In the North, the strategy was not to invading all USSR territories or march over Moscow!
The goal was to force Staline to negociate as the victory of Japan over Russia in 1905.And as i told you like 6 times already, this game starts AFTER the point of which they made this decision.
Like i didn’t cover the possibility that Hitler might have been assassinated before Sept 1st
Or that Hitler and Stalin didn’t conclude any treaty
Or that FDR was not elected president
Or that Japan didn’t get wiped out fighting Zhukov in the summer of 1939, and decided it was too risky
The truth is what you wrote is covered on wikpedia already.
And you still have not complained about the rules limiting the Russians to attack Germany until turn 3, or USA can’t attack the axis till turn 4. Why?
There are reasons why some things are not possible and why decisions were made otherwise. These decisions are based on very important influences and you completely missed the point regarding how Japan was influenced by their drubbing at the Mongolian border in the summer of 1939. This was the key factor over all others in their decision to avoid a repeat performance.
It exposed the total inadequacy of japanese logistics, which was is very poor shape and the very limited mechanization in their army. And Stalin only took this force away when his spy’s told him that Japan was committed to attack USA.
My game reflects the actual possibilities presented to its players. Japan was bogged down in China and not really making any headway. Russia on the other hand was much better prepared and defending in much better terrain.
In my game Japan can of course start her war against USA on turn 1, but that would also be stupid. The reason why this is allowed is because Japan didn’t undertake any discussions against fighting USA in 1939 before the start date. But relative to Soviet Union they did make these decisions and it was not to engage them because they were not prepared. The only other time they considered this again was near the end of 1941, which in my game allows them to attack.
So my game in only concerned with realistic possibility and not speculative ‘what if’ because anybody can extrapolate anything from the latter… including NAZI flying saucers, death rays, Godzilla, etc.
I don’t do Fantasy
Suggested Topics
