Is AAP40 broken?

[kaufschtick]

@calvinhobbesliker:

But kauf, there can easily be 8 UK inf, 1 art from India and Malaya. Then it’s Allies: 15@2, 1@3, 5@4; Japan 3@1 5@3 8@4:

Allies get 9 hits, japan 8(by rounding). Allies left with 7 troops, 6 planes; Japan with 7 planes. They lose

In Yunnan on turn two? I think you’re forgetting that the Japanese move first.

The Japanese move first each turn, they’ll smash the Chinese and any British air before the British infantry would move on turn two.

Those British planes fly to Yunnan on turn one, and they are goners at the top of turn two, you can take that to the bank.

You’d have 4 British infantry in Burma and another 4 in Shan state, with Singapore wide open!

The British occupy Yunnan on turn two, and the Japanese take Singapore and quite possibly India at the top of turn three!

Not good for the Allies; bad for morale.

@bugoo:

If worred about a Jap airstrike against china’s starting force, simply put your UK planes with them which will result in japan loosing a ton of airpower.

This is what I was refering to. Unless I’ve read this wrong (and I do that  :oops: ), it sounds like this means to reinforce the Chinese who retake Yunnan on turn one with British air flown in on B1.

If the British pull their infantry out of Singapore on turn one and move it to Shan State, I as the Japanese player, would forgo taking one of the DEI islands on J2, maybe even two of them, in order to grab Singapore a full turn earlier. Then I build a major IC on turn three instead of on turn 4.

[calvinhobbesliker]

I think the stack occurs on turn 2. If the Japs take Singapore on the 2nd turn, they have to forego 1 DEI, losing 6 ipcs(9 for the DEI-3 Malaya). Then, China recaptures Yun with 2-3 inf, ftr, UK reinforces with 9 inf, art and planes ANZAC with 1 inf, and you have 13@2 1@3 4@4, vs  3@1 5@3 8@4 or 45 vs 50. However, the allies will be taken cheap and low-defense inf as hits while japan takes planes. In the 1st round, the allies will get 7 or 8 hits, the Japs 8. Let’s say the allies get 7. Japan loses its land units and 4 planes, allies lose 8 inf
now it’s 5@2 1@3 4@4 vs 3@3 6@4 or 29 vs 33. Let’s say allies get 5 hits, Japan 6, then allies lose 5 troops and a plane, japs lose 5 planes. Then it’s a ftr, 3 bmrs vs 4 ftrs. lets say all die. Japan has lost 13 planes, the allies 5. If the UK builds 4 mech turn 1, then that’s an additional 4@2 defendin Yunnan, meaning that the Brits will lose less planes

[kaufschtick]

@calvinhobbesliker:

I think the stack occurs on turn 2. If the Japs take Singapore on the 2nd turn, they have to forego 1 DEI, losing 6 ipcs(9 for the DEI-3 Malaya). Then, China recaptures Yun with 2-3 inf, ftr, UK reinforces with 9 inf, art and planes ANZAC with 1 inf, and you have 13@2 1@3 4@4, vs  3@1 5@3 8@4 or 45 vs 50. However, the allies will be taken cheap and low-defense inf as hits while japan takes planes. In the 1st round, the allies will get 7 or 8 hits, the Japs 8. Let’s say the allies get 7. Japan loses its land units and 4 planes, allies lose 8 inf
now it’s 5@2 1@3 4@4 vs 3@3 6@4 or 29 vs 33. Let’s say allies get 5 hits, Japan 6, then allies lose 5 troops and a plane, japs lose 5 planes. Then it’s a ftr, 3 bmrs vs 4 ftrs. lets say all die. Japan has lost 13 planes, the allies 5. If the UK builds 4 mech turn 1, then that’s an additional 4@2 defendin Yunnan, meaning that the Brits will lose less planes

If the British want to move into Yunnan on turn two, why would I care as the Japanese? Let em have it on turn two. India is wide open at that point.

That British force is now two turns from anything of any value, most importantly, India. Especially if the British build 4 mech on turn one and move them to Yunnan as well.

The IJN can off shore shell maybe as many as 4 times, along with CV air (3) into India.

And if the Japanese take Burma, what 's the point in controlling Yunnan? Even if the Burma road is held, you’re strategy is to exchange Singapore & India so the Chinese can get two extra infantry a turn?

Churchill will shoot you himself. :-D

[calvinhobbesliker]

@kaufschtick:

@calvinhobbesliker:

I think the stack occurs on turn 2. If the Japs take Singapore on the 2nd turn, they have to forego 1 DEI, losing 6 ipcs(9 for the DEI-3 Malaya). Then, China recaptures Yun with 2-3 inf, ftr, UK reinforces with 9 inf, art and planes ANZAC with 1 inf, and you have 13@2 1@3 4@4, vs  3@1 5@3 8@4 or 45 vs 50. However, the allies will be taken cheap and low-defense inf as hits while japan takes planes. In the 1st round, the allies will get 7 or 8 hits, the Japs 8. Let’s say the allies get 7. Japan loses its land units and 4 planes, allies lose 8 inf
now it’s 5@2 1@3 4@4 vs 3@3 6@4 or 29 vs 33. Let’s say allies get 5 hits, Japan 6, then allies lose 5 troops and a plane, japs lose 5 planes. Then it’s a ftr, 3 bmrs vs 4 ftrs. lets say all die. Japan has lost 13 planes, the allies 5. If the UK builds 4 mech turn 1, then that’s an additional 4@2 defendin Yunnan, meaning that the Brits will lose less planes

If the British want to move into Yunnan on turn two, why would I care as the Japanese? Let em have it on turn two. India is wide open at that point.

On the 2nd turn, your fleet in unified at Borneo, right? That can’t reach india. You may put them off Java, but then the DD or CC can block the route to Z39 and India

[kaufschtick]

@calvinhobbesliker:

On the 2nd turn, your fleet in unified at Borneo, right?

Not if the British pull out of Singapore on B1. On J1, I have 2 x CVs in the PI, and 1 in Celebes (with fully loaded transport). All fully loaded with air. There is a good chance that between Japanese survivors in Hong Kong & the PI there will be enough troops to fill the two transports, not counting the two troops in Vietnam.

If the Brits pull out of Singapore and move to Shan State, I’d attack them with overwelming air in Shan State, 2 x infantry from Vietnam, maybe one transport load of men to get the BB off shore shots, and land the rest in Singapore. If the British have their planes with this group, it’s game over.

The Brits in Shan State will get chewed like an old bone, half of the British force will be gone, nothing left to counter attack Singapore, and Churchill will be requesting that the British Commander in this theater return to England immediately to face a military court marshall.

@calvinhobbesliker:

That can’t reach india. You may put them off Java, but then the DD or CC can block the route to Z39 and India

In order to keep the Japanese out of Singapore on J2, the British would have to block SZs 36, 43 & 42 with just two ships. The ANZAC DD cannot make it there before J2.

The Brit CA & DD may keep India safe on J3, but they will be toasted that turn and the road will be open by J4, which is crazy bad for the Allies to be in a position to possibly loose India at the top of turn 4.

[calvinhobbesliker]

Okay, if you do that, you can only take 1 of the DEI, since you use 1 trans on Shan and one on Malaya. Then, you lose 9 ipc’s for that turn that you would’ve gotten. I don’t put planes on Shan, and sometimes I wipe out the 2 inf in FIC with the air force

[kaufschtick]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Okay, if you do that, you can only take 1 of the DEI, since you use 1 trans on Shan and one on Malaya. Then, you lose 9 ipc’s for that turn that you would’ve gotten. I don’t put planes on Shan, and sometimes I wipe out the 2 inf in FIC with the air force

Wow, irreplaceable 10 point British fighters being risked to knock out two 3 point Japanese infantry.

I can just imagine the look on the Allied players face the game he does this and both of those infantry score a hit.

I guess you could just set the game up all over agian and start over though.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@kaufschtick:

@calvinhobbesliker:

Okay, if you do that, you can only take 1 of the DEI, since you use 1 trans on Shan and one on Malaya. Then, you lose 9 ipc’s for that turn that you would’ve gotten. I don’t put planes on Shan, and sometimes I wipe out the 2 inf in FIC with the air force

Wow, irreplaceable 10 point British fighters being risked to knock out two 3 point Japanese infantry.

I can just imagine the look on the Allied players face the game he does this and both of those infantry score a hit.

I guess you could just set the game up all over agian and start over though.

In the battle simulator, Japan loses 6 ipc’s on average, the allies 7. However, this means you must use transports if you want to invade shan and it destroys 2 units that would attack yunnan

[Van_Trump]

I am unconvinced that India can be held if UK helps China keep the Burma road open.

1st game I ever played I did all the book moves (except I went in PI with 3 loaded transp instead of 2) as Japan.

Turn 2 Uk used DD to prevent bombardment on Singapore. Made no diff. 3 loaded transp (picking up Hong Kong survivors), plus a shitload of airpower, hit and captured Singapore with 1 round of combat.

UK had it in his mind to help China right from the start and started moving his inf stack forward turns 1 and 2. British air were in India and only 4 infantry.

J3 India + Burma fell to Japanese amphibious assult from Singapore (air support for India attack: 4 Bmb, 1 Tac, 1 F, many, many, many planes were able to reach Burma).
I recall that the Japanese had 1 ground unit left in both India & Burma, might have taken 3 air as casualties total.

Two thirds of my fleet was in Truk staring down the USN in Hawaii by end of J2.

GAME OVER (Allies resigned)

I have won playing UK but a) Japan didnt attack until J3 and b) Japan was an extremely weak player (UK captured DEI - nuff said)

I really don’t have an effective strategy for UK (though I do want to try the CV build).

I do know UK cannot effectively reinf China without exposing itself to Massed Japanese Air Power(MJAP).

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Van_Trump:

I am unconvinced that India can be held if UK helps China keep the Burma road open.

1st game I ever played I did all the book moves (except I went in PI with 3 loaded transp instead of 2) as Japan.

Turn 2 Uk used DD to prevent bombardment on Singapore. Made no diff. 3 loaded transp (picking up Hong Kong survivors), plus a shitload of airpower, hit and captured Singapore with 1 round of combat.

UK had it in his mind to help China right from the start and started moving his inf stack forward turns 1 and 2. British air were in India and only 4 infantry.

J3 India + Burma fell to Japanese amphibious assult from Singapore (air support for India attack: 4 Bmb, 1 Tac, 1 F, many, many, many planes were able to reach Burma).
I recall that the Japanese had 1 ground unit left in both India & Burma, might have taken 3 air as casualties total.

Two thirds of my fleet was in Truk staring down the USN in Hawaii by end of J2.

GAME OVER (Allies resigned)

I have won playing UK but a) Japan didnt attack until J3 and b) Japan was an extremely weak player (UK captured DEI - nuff said)

I really don’t have an effective strategy for UK (though I do want to try the CV build).

I do know UK cannot effectively reinf China without exposing itself to Massed Japanese Air Power(MJAP).

Okay, India falls. So what? India will fall anyway, so you might as well use those troops to help China take some tt instead of them sitting in India waiting to die.

[Van_Trump]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Okay, India falls. So what? India will fall anyway, so you might as well use those troops to help China take some tt instead of them sitting in India waiting to die.

Well, that’s the real trick, isn’t it?

What does UK do in its limited window of opportunity?

[calvinhobbesliker]

It reinforces tt that China takes, and/or it blocks tanks.

Do you think the game is broken?

[bugoo]

Ok, let me be a bit more clear with the UK/China.

Turn 1) China retakes Yun, places 4 inf in Szeshwan, along with moving an inf there and landing the fig.  UK moves 4 inf from Malaya to Sham State, 4 inf, 1 art, 1 aa from india to burma, lands planes in SZESHWAN if you are scared japan will attack it will air to wipe out the chinamen.  Absolutely no japan ground forces can reach them.  Then builds either 4 mech, or 4 inf and a mech.

Turn 2) China retakes Yun, places 5 inf there, granting around 6-9 china inf there.  UK then moves all forces they desire to Yunnan while making sure india cannot be taken (obviously).  This gives you around 7(china inf), 5 inf, 1 art, 1 AA(burma UK forces), possible 4 more inf from Sham State (granted i would kill them as ANZAC inf should go there too, if japan doesn’t anzac can take Siam for an easy 6 bucks), and anywhere from 1 to 4 mech, and up to 5 planes.  Japan is extremely thin on ground troops in the south for the first two turns.  And yes, you may wish to rebuild that AA gun if japan gets planes in range of india.

At this point, India is secure, Yun has a monster stack, on japan 3 they will build a factory, on japan 4 they will build 10 inf, at this point you may desire to move the monster stack from Yun, to burma.  Where it just happens to be in the way.  This grants you an extra 10-15 china inf to go with the UK stack defending.  Now yes, japan can bypass Burma, but that is costly and slows them down in the naval race.  The US will not always be able to get a big enough fleet, but alot of times they can.  And this is where the balance comes in.  You may also want to let japan take burma on turn 5 if you can retake it with china and the UK, sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes a bad idea (good because it keeps japans air out of the fight killing your stack as your stack is doing the attacking, sometime bad because you loose too much).  With the game dragging out this long you just may get lucky and get some US/ANZAC planes into that region as well.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@bugoo:

Ok, let me be a bit more clear with the UK/China.

Turn 1) China retakes Yun, places 4 inf in Szeshwan, along with moving an inf there and landing the fig.  UK moves 4 inf from Malaya to Sham State, 4 inf, 1 art, 1 aa from india to burma, lands planes in SZESHWAN if you are scared japan will attack it will air to wipe out the chinamen.  Absolutely no japan ground forces can reach them.  Then builds either 4 mech, or 4 inf and a mech.

Turn 2) China retakes Yun, places 5 inf there, granting around 6-9 china inf there.  UK then moves all forces they desire to Yunnan while making sure india cannot be taken (obviously).  This gives you around 7(china inf), 5 inf, 1 art, 1 AA(burma UK forces), possible 4 more inf from Sham State (granted i would kill them as ANZAC inf should go there too, if japan doesn’t anzac can take Siam for an easy 6 bucks), and anywhere from 1 to 4 mech, and up to 5 planes.  Japan is extremely thin on ground troops in the south for the first two turns.  And yes, you may wish to rebuild that AA gun if japan gets planes in range of india.

At this point, India is secure, Yun has a monster stack, on japan 3 they will build a factory, on japan 4 they will build 10 inf, at this point you may desire to move the monster stack from Yun, to burma.  Where it just happens to be in the way.  This grants you an extra 10-15 china inf to go with the UK stack defending.  Now yes, japan can bypass Burma, but that is costly and slows them down in the naval race.  The US will not always be able to get a big enough fleet, but alot of times they can.  And this is where the balance comes in.  You may also want to let japan take burma on turn 5 if you can retake it with china and the UK, sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes a bad idea (good because it keeps japans air out of the fight killing your stack as your stack is doing the attacking, sometime bad because you loose too much).  With the game dragging out this long you just may get lucky and get some US/ANZAC planes into that region as well.

And 30 ipc’s for the factory and another 30 for infantry is not leaving enough money to keep up with the US’s naval builds

[Van_Trump]

@bugoo:

Ok, let me be a bit more clear with the UK/China.

Turn 1) China retakes Yun, places 4 inf in Szeshwan, along with moving an inf there and landing the fig.  UK moves 4 inf from Malaya to Sham State, 4 inf, 1 art, 1 aa from india to burma, lands planes in SZESHWAN if you are scared japan will attack it will air to wipe out the chinamen.  Absolutely no japan ground forces can reach them.  Then builds either 4 mech, or 4 inf and a mech.

Turn 2) China retakes Yun, places 5 inf there, granting around 6-9 china inf there.  UK then moves all forces they desire to Yunnan while making sure india cannot be taken (obviously).  This gives you around 7(china inf), 5 inf, 1 art, 1 AA(burma UK forces), possible 4 more inf from Sham State (granted i would kill them as ANZAC inf should go there too, if japan doesn’t anzac can take Siam for an easy 6 bucks), and anywhere from 1 to 4 mech, and up to 5 planes.  Japan is extremely thin on ground troops in the south for the first two turns.  And yes, you may wish to rebuild that AA gun if japan gets planes in range of india.

At this point, India is secure, Yun has a monster stack, on japan 3 they will build a factory, on japan 4 they will build 10 inf, at this point you may desire to move the monster stack from Yun, to burma.  Where it just happens to be in the way.  This grants you an extra 10-15 china inf to go with the UK stack defending.  Now yes, japan can bypass Burma, but that is costly and slows them down in the naval race.  The US will not always be able to get a big enough fleet, but alot of times they can.  And this is where the balance comes in.  You may also want to let japan take burma on turn 5 if you can retake it with china and the UK, sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes a bad idea (good because it keeps japans air out of the fight killing your stack as your stack is doing the attacking, sometime bad because you loose too much).  With the game dragging out this long you just may get lucky and get some US/ANZAC planes into that region as well.

Well, J2 I drop 3 loaded Transp (J1 purchase) on FIC ( <–-- book move, btw) and attack Yunnan with 4inf 2Art (and whoever else can reach)+ MJAP. As Japan I easily trade a like number of planes for all of the RAF in the region.

I always lick my lips whenever I see UK fighters in Yunnan. It’s only happened twice. Very ugly for the allies both times.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Van_Trump:

@bugoo:

Ok, let me be a bit more clear with the UK/China.

Turn 1) China retakes Yun, places 4 inf in Szeshwan, along with moving an inf there and landing the fig.  UK moves 4 inf from Malaya to Sham State, 4 inf, 1 art, 1 aa from india to burma, lands planes in SZESHWAN if you are scared japan will attack it will air to wipe out the chinamen.  Absolutely no japan ground forces can reach them.  Then builds either 4 mech, or 4 inf and a mech.

Turn 2) China retakes Yun, places 5 inf there, granting around 6-9 china inf there.  UK then moves all forces they desire to Yunnan while making sure india cannot be taken (obviously).  This gives you around 7(china inf), 5 inf, 1 art, 1 AA(burma UK forces), possible 4 more inf from Sham State (granted i would kill them as ANZAC inf should go there too, if japan doesn’t anzac can take Siam for an easy 6 bucks), and anywhere from 1 to 4 mech, and up to 5 planes.  Japan is extremely thin on ground troops in the south for the first two turns.  And yes, you may wish to rebuild that AA gun if japan gets planes in range of india.

At this point, India is secure, Yun has a monster stack, on japan 3 they will build a factory, on japan 4 they will build 10 inf, at this point you may desire to move the monster stack from Yun, to burma.  Where it just happens to be in the way.  This grants you an extra 10-15 china inf to go with the UK stack defending.  Now yes, japan can bypass Burma, but that is costly and slows them down in the naval race.  The US will not always be able to get a big enough fleet, but alot of times they can.  And this is where the balance comes in.  You may also want to let japan take burma on turn 5 if you can retake it with china and the UK, sometimes this is a good idea, sometimes a bad idea (good because it keeps japans air out of the fight killing your stack as your stack is doing the attacking, sometime bad because you loose too much).  With the game dragging out this long you just may get lucky and get some US/ANZAC planes into that region as well.

Well, J2 I drop 3 loaded Transp (J1 purchase) on FIC ( <–-- book move, btw) and attack Yunnan with 4inf 2Art (and whoever else can reach)+ MJAP. As Japan I easily trade a like number of planes for all of the RAF in the region.

I always lick my lips whenever I see UK fighters in Yunnan. It’s only happened twice. Very ugly for the allies both times.

I assume you land planes on FIC to prevent an attack by 4-5 inf, 4 ftrs, 1 tac?

[bugoo]

Ok, so you have 6 ground units plus planes going up against atleast 10, more like closer to 15, plus an aa gun, and maybe some of UKs planes.  Rock on, that is a good trade for the allies to make.

Let me put a little disclaimer on my ‘advice’:

If, at any time, your UK planes can die by landing in a territory and not take down atleast 2 japan planes for each one you loose, or a japan transport, DO NOT LAND THEM there.  Also, if you can hold India with the planes, but not without the planes, LAND THEM IN INDIA.  I assume a certain level of common sense to be applied.