The Bismarck

[SgtBlitz]

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Actually, Germany’s surface navy was really bad. As for the luck in hitting the boiler, there were tens, if not hgundreds of attacks, and a multiple number of places will cause a ship’s destruction.

[maverick_76]

@SgtBlitz:

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Tell that to Russia man, lol.

[WILD BILL]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@purplebaron:

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

I agree:
The Bismark & Tirpitz were both launched in early 1939 from their shipyards. The Bismark was commissioned 8-25-40, and the Tirpitz 6 months later 2-25-41. The Bismark started sea trials in the Baltic in Sep 1940, then went back to shipyard for modifications. Both Bismark & Tirpitz did more sea trials in the Baltic (at the same time) starting in March 1941. Hitler did an inspection of both ships in the Baltic in May 1941, just before the Bismark was sent to raid convoy’s in the Atlantic, and we all know how that ended. The Tirpitz (added to the Baltic fleet) was used as a deterrent during Barbarossa  to keep Russian ships from leaving harbor, then in 1942 was sent to the north shores of Norway, to raid shipping in the Arctic between UK & Russia, where it really didn’t do much.

So yea both ships launched prior to the games start, and had sea trials in the Baltic just before or after, so Germany should get 1 BB for sure. The Baltic will have some def w/Danish Straight, and the fact that UK ftrs can’t make it there and back is great for game play IMO. From what I’ve read the threat of these two ships in the right setting, tied up 50 to maybe 100 allied ships, that could have been used elsewhere.

I think the German Baltic navy will be about the same size as the Italian navy is in AA50. You will have to add pieces to it to keep it. You can use it in the Baltic to bombard and reinforce (like Italy does in AA50), or get ballsy and build a super fleet to come out and play with the big boys.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Then the British fleet should not be able to be sunk off Iceland by subs and planes.

Iceland will be able to scramble planes from an AB that I’m sure is there at game start. Uk will be able to send up planes to def RN, and so will US once at war. Iceland will be a landing spot for US heading to England.

[Raeder]

While I’m strongly in favor of Germany starting with a Battleship to represent Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneiseneu, I do not think that they should have a CV. Graf Zeppelin was never put to sea with fighters on it. If the German player wants a CV he will have to build one.

[WILD BILL]

This is true about carriers, neither Germany or Italy should start with one, but of coarse can build one. The G Zep was nearly ready several times, but they kept pulling the plug on it. I think I read some where that parts from the G Zep carrier were stripped and sent to Italy to attempt the completion of the Italian carrier Aquila. Germany gained control of Aquila after Italy surrendered, but it was damaged so neither ever got to use it.

[Lozza007]

Hey chaps,

<sigh>It seems I must be the Defender of the Faith when it comes to the Royal Navy  :|

Whilst I appreciate that Axis & Allies is only an abstract version of an historical war, if there are some folks keen on playing around with a German navy in AAE40 then they’re going to have to build it themselves, rather than say, invading Russia.  The reason they didn’t start the war with a large navy was because Germany chose to spend its money on planes and tanks.  Guns’n’butter trade off at its best  :-D

Size of Royal Navy in 1939 (1 year earlier):
The Royal Navy had 15 large battleships, 15 heavy cruisers, 46 light cruisers, 7 aircraft carriers, 181 destroyers and 59 submarines.

Size of German navy in 1940: 4 Battleships, 2 Pocket-Battleships, 12 cruisers (all types), 27 destroyers, and only a few dozen submarines of which less than 10 could actually sail march further than the North Sea.

As I said in a post in AAP40 forum, I have no problem with the UK “wasting” its money on replacing endless destroyers in German submarine raids, but regularly trashing the UK fleet as part of the standard German moves is just silly, not to mention impossible.

Cheers,

Lozza007</sigh>

[maverick_76]

I feel that for Germany a good starting navy should be 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, and 2 subs.

[idk_iam_swiss]

throw in two destroyers and a transport and you got a deal!

[calvinhobbesliker]

Then the Royal Navy should have 2 BB, 1-2 CC and 1 destroyer and 2 trans. They might have an AC

[maverick_76]

I almost forgot the obligatory transport.

But with that setup the UK should have:

2 battleships
3 cruisers
2 subs
2 transports
1 aircraft carrier with a plane

[maverick_76]

Actually strike one of the subs from the UK. There, that looks about right. Remember that Germany has the superior air force so even though UK is stacked navy-wise, a smart German player can still do heavy damage with good aircraft attacks.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@maverick_76:

I almost forgot the obligatory transport.

But with that setup the UK should have:

2 battleships
3 cruisers
2 subs
2 transports
1 aircraft carrier with a plane

I guess the lack of DD’s represents their poor ani-sub tach.
In the game, it’s going to be 1 BB, 1 CC, 2 trans, and after G1, there will be 1 trans left

[maverick_76]

Are you sure that will be the setup?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@maverick_76:

Are you sure that will be the setup?

No, but I’m guessing that based on previous games where the RN is weak and esily attacked before the UK gets a turn

[maverick_76]

True, we shall see soon won’t we?

[Lozza007]

Hey again,

I wouldn’t have said the UK’s ASW technology was poor in 1940.  They had sonar/asdic as well as basic radar.  The key thing is that there simply wasn’t enough escort ships to guard all the convoy routes, and air power wasn’t available in the mid-Atlantic.  The RN pretty much refused to let many of its destroyers be used as convoy escorts as they feared depleting the Home Fleet.

Again, I feel the best way to represent this in AAE40 is to compel the RN to remain in UK waters through threat of invasion etc, and then encourage the Germans to whittle away UK income through convoy attacks.  This will force the UK to invest in destroyers and other replacement units, rather than stacking up large and threatening France/Germany with invasion as early as 1940-41.

The UK can still have a powerful fleet but it will be a bit of a paper tiger if it’s only got 10-20 IPCs to spend every turn due to convoy losses.

Cheers,

Lozza007

[maverick_76]

I agree with you saying that they are a bit of a paper tiger, one you take convoys away you can pretty much kill them off without having to invade.