The Bismarck

[Striker]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@molinar13:

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

Well, if it’s sent to sea, i’ll be killed by the RN and RAF. If it stays, it has no use other than protecting transports which’ll invade Karelia.

Unless, of course, Germany cleans house in regards to the RN like the beginning of every other A&A game so far(through subs and air power).  A single carrier and now you have a mini fleet that could probably make it to the med if you wished.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Striker:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@molinar13:

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

Well, if it’s sent to sea, i’ll be killed by the RN and RAF. If it stays, it has no use other than protecting transports which’ll invade Karelia.

Unless, of course, Germany cleans house in regards to the RN like the beginning of every other A&A game so far(through subs and air power).  A single carrier and now you have a mini fleet that could probably make it to the med if you wished.

Yeah, that’s annoying. Hopefully, for historical accuracy, they make the RN stronger, while making the Luftwaffe stronger for balance. Besides,; earlier the fleet was just a BB. Now, they’ll probably get at least a cruiser and destroyer, maybe even a carrier.

[allweneedislove]

german navy should be: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 0 Carrier, 7 Sub

this is an estimation using germans real navy size in 1940 (4 Battleship, 13 Cruiser, 26 Destroyer, 240 Sub and 1 CV and probably a couple of hundred SS under construction) and the same ratio of japans real navy in 1940 and thier starting game navy

Japan’s real navy:     10 BB, 38 CA, 108 DD, 8 CV, 68 SS
Japan’s game navy:    2 BB,   2 CA,    4 DD, 3 CV,   2 SS
Ratio of real to game: 5/1,    19/1,    27/1,   8/3,  34/1

so it looks like g will get its bismarck.

for more information on fleets go to http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=18414.0

[WILD BILL]

I think it will be cool that the Germans might be able to maintain a navy based from the Baltic. You’ll have to add a few ships to keep it in tact, but I think it might be a viable option. In the right circumstances you may be compelled to build an air craft carrier and wander out into the North Sea, or Atlantic to hook up with the Italian Navy (like UK & US do all the time).

W/Germany able to launch ships into the North Sea plus the French coastal IC (in German hands) you could move your fleet out and add to it. In AA50 you first had to build an IC on France to do that, and it was to expensive to add IC’s & ships. Of coarse building navy is always going to give Russia some breathing room.

Even if you added a few ships (for protection) and keep it in the Baltic, being able to bombard Russia will be cool. It would also help Germany keep control of the Scandinavian countries. Who knows there could also be convoy’s in the Baltic.

[tkroll]

Wasn’t the Tirpitz completed sometime after the Bismark? I seem to remember that Germany at one point hoped to send both ships to sea about the same time but for some reason the Tirpitz wasn’t ready to put to sea so the Prince Eugen went with Bismark.

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

[purplebaron]

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@purplebaron:

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

Then the British fleet should not be able to be sunk off Iceland by subs and planes.

[SgtBlitz]

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Actually, Germany’s surface navy was really bad. As for the luck in hitting the boiler, there were tens, if not hgundreds of attacks, and a multiple number of places will cause a ship’s destruction.

[maverick_76]

@SgtBlitz:

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Tell that to Russia man, lol.

[WILD BILL]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@purplebaron:

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

I agree:
The Bismark & Tirpitz were both launched in early 1939 from their shipyards. The Bismark was commissioned 8-25-40, and the Tirpitz 6 months later 2-25-41. The Bismark started sea trials in the Baltic in Sep 1940, then went back to shipyard for modifications. Both Bismark & Tirpitz did more sea trials in the Baltic (at the same time) starting in March 1941. Hitler did an inspection of both ships in the Baltic in May 1941, just before the Bismark was sent to raid convoy’s in the Atlantic, and we all know how that ended. The Tirpitz (added to the Baltic fleet) was used as a deterrent during Barbarossa  to keep Russian ships from leaving harbor, then in 1942 was sent to the north shores of Norway, to raid shipping in the Arctic between UK & Russia, where it really didn’t do much.

So yea both ships launched prior to the games start, and had sea trials in the Baltic just before or after, so Germany should get 1 BB for sure. The Baltic will have some def w/Danish Straight, and the fact that UK ftrs can’t make it there and back is great for game play IMO. From what I’ve read the threat of these two ships in the right setting, tied up 50 to maybe 100 allied ships, that could have been used elsewhere.

I think the German Baltic navy will be about the same size as the Italian navy is in AA50. You will have to add pieces to it to keep it. You can use it in the Baltic to bombard and reinforce (like Italy does in AA50), or get ballsy and build a super fleet to come out and play with the big boys.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Then the British fleet should not be able to be sunk off Iceland by subs and planes.

Iceland will be able to scramble planes from an AB that I’m sure is there at game start. Uk will be able to send up planes to def RN, and so will US once at war. Iceland will be a landing spot for US heading to England.

[Raeder]

While I’m strongly in favor of Germany starting with a Battleship to represent Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneiseneu, I do not think that they should have a CV. Graf Zeppelin was never put to sea with fighters on it. If the German player wants a CV he will have to build one.

[WILD BILL]

This is true about carriers, neither Germany or Italy should start with one, but of coarse can build one. The G Zep was nearly ready several times, but they kept pulling the plug on it. I think I read some where that parts from the G Zep carrier were stripped and sent to Italy to attempt the completion of the Italian carrier Aquila. Germany gained control of Aquila after Italy surrendered, but it was damaged so neither ever got to use it.

[Lozza007]

Hey chaps,

<sigh>It seems I must be the Defender of the Faith when it comes to the Royal Navy  :|

Whilst I appreciate that Axis & Allies is only an abstract version of an historical war, if there are some folks keen on playing around with a German navy in AAE40 then they’re going to have to build it themselves, rather than say, invading Russia.  The reason they didn’t start the war with a large navy was because Germany chose to spend its money on planes and tanks.  Guns’n’butter trade off at its best  :-D

Size of Royal Navy in 1939 (1 year earlier):
The Royal Navy had 15 large battleships, 15 heavy cruisers, 46 light cruisers, 7 aircraft carriers, 181 destroyers and 59 submarines.

Size of German navy in 1940: 4 Battleships, 2 Pocket-Battleships, 12 cruisers (all types), 27 destroyers, and only a few dozen submarines of which less than 10 could actually sail march further than the North Sea.

As I said in a post in AAP40 forum, I have no problem with the UK “wasting” its money on replacing endless destroyers in German submarine raids, but regularly trashing the UK fleet as part of the standard German moves is just silly, not to mention impossible.

Cheers,

Lozza007</sigh>

[maverick_76]

I feel that for Germany a good starting navy should be 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, and 2 subs.

[idk_iam_swiss]

throw in two destroyers and a transport and you got a deal!

[calvinhobbesliker]

Then the Royal Navy should have 2 BB, 1-2 CC and 1 destroyer and 2 trans. They might have an AC

[maverick_76]

I almost forgot the obligatory transport.

But with that setup the UK should have:

2 battleships
3 cruisers
2 subs
2 transports
1 aircraft carrier with a plane

[maverick_76]

Actually strike one of the subs from the UK. There, that looks about right. Remember that Germany has the superior air force so even though UK is stacked navy-wise, a smart German player can still do heavy damage with good aircraft attacks.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@maverick_76:

I almost forgot the obligatory transport.

But with that setup the UK should have:

2 battleships
3 cruisers
2 subs
2 transports
1 aircraft carrier with a plane

I guess the lack of DD’s represents their poor ani-sub tach.
In the game, it’s going to be 1 BB, 1 CC, 2 trans, and after G1, there will be 1 trans left