The Bismarck

[molinar13]

From my understanding the game takes during 1940, the bismarck sank in 1941. Being one of the most well known battle ships of all time will Germany finally be given a battle ship in the Baltic Sea? Now I know the game does not match up ship for ship but do you think The Bismarck should be represented in AAE40?

[oztea]

It should be, Germany should also have 2 cruisers.
Italy should have about 3 cruisers and 2 battleships.
USSR should have at least a cruiser
UK should have at least 2 Battleships and 4 Cruisers and a Carrier.
US should start with at least a cruiser.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@oztea:

It should be, Germany should also have 2 cruisers.
Italy should have about 3 cruisers and 2 battleships.
USSR should have at least a cruiser
UK should have at least 2 Battleships and 4 Cruisers and a Carrier.
US should start with at least a cruiser.

Is this info from the person who did an analysis of game navy vs real navy?
What about France?

[oztea]

My naval estimation is just guesstimation

Based on whereabouts units will be.

Germanys fleet will be in the baltic, Battlship Cruiser Destroyer Transport 2x subs, another seazone with a Cruiser and a sub.

Italy will have a 2 Battleship and 2 cruiser fleet, and a cruiser + destroyer floating around

UK will have a battlship task force at Gibraltar and Liverpool. Other fleet elements scatterd about.

[WILD BILL]

Hell yea Germany should start w 1 bb to account for the Bismark/Tirpitz. These two ships are two of the most storied bb’s of the era, and scared the hell out of the allies.  I’m not sure if they were both in the Baltic in 1940 (I think so) The Tirpitz was moved to northern Norway to be an Arctic convoy raider in 1942, but never really saw any action as it was confined to the fjords, after the Bismark was sunk. The Brits finely got it after several attempts.

[molinar13]

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@molinar13:

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

Well, if it’s sent to sea, i’ll be killed by the RN and RAF. If it stays, it has no use other than protecting transports which’ll invade Karelia.

[Striker]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@molinar13:

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

Well, if it’s sent to sea, i’ll be killed by the RN and RAF. If it stays, it has no use other than protecting transports which’ll invade Karelia.

Unless, of course, Germany cleans house in regards to the RN like the beginning of every other A&A game so far(through subs and air power).  A single carrier and now you have a mini fleet that could probably make it to the med if you wished.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Striker:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@molinar13:

i agree, plus with the Baltic out of reach of British air power, this will give the German player an option, either send the BB out to sea, or leave it.

Well, if it’s sent to sea, i’ll be killed by the RN and RAF. If it stays, it has no use other than protecting transports which’ll invade Karelia.

Unless, of course, Germany cleans house in regards to the RN like the beginning of every other A&A game so far(through subs and air power).  A single carrier and now you have a mini fleet that could probably make it to the med if you wished.

Yeah, that’s annoying. Hopefully, for historical accuracy, they make the RN stronger, while making the Luftwaffe stronger for balance. Besides,; earlier the fleet was just a BB. Now, they’ll probably get at least a cruiser and destroyer, maybe even a carrier.

[allweneedislove]

german navy should be: 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 0 Carrier, 7 Sub

this is an estimation using germans real navy size in 1940 (4 Battleship, 13 Cruiser, 26 Destroyer, 240 Sub and 1 CV and probably a couple of hundred SS under construction) and the same ratio of japans real navy in 1940 and thier starting game navy

Japan’s real navy:     10 BB, 38 CA, 108 DD, 8 CV, 68 SS
Japan’s game navy:    2 BB,   2 CA,    4 DD, 3 CV,   2 SS
Ratio of real to game: 5/1,    19/1,    27/1,   8/3,  34/1

so it looks like g will get its bismarck.

for more information on fleets go to http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=18414.0

[WILD BILL]

I think it will be cool that the Germans might be able to maintain a navy based from the Baltic. You’ll have to add a few ships to keep it in tact, but I think it might be a viable option. In the right circumstances you may be compelled to build an air craft carrier and wander out into the North Sea, or Atlantic to hook up with the Italian Navy (like UK & US do all the time).

W/Germany able to launch ships into the North Sea plus the French coastal IC (in German hands) you could move your fleet out and add to it. In AA50 you first had to build an IC on France to do that, and it was to expensive to add IC’s & ships. Of coarse building navy is always going to give Russia some breathing room.

Even if you added a few ships (for protection) and keep it in the Baltic, being able to bombard Russia will be cool. It would also help Germany keep control of the Scandinavian countries. Who knows there could also be convoy’s in the Baltic.

[tkroll]

Wasn’t the Tirpitz completed sometime after the Bismark? I seem to remember that Germany at one point hoped to send both ships to sea about the same time but for some reason the Tirpitz wasn’t ready to put to sea so the Prince Eugen went with Bismark.

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

[purplebaron]

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@purplebaron:

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

Then the British fleet should not be able to be sunk off Iceland by subs and planes.

[SgtBlitz]

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SgtBlitz:

Man, I was hoping we’d have a cruiser for Germany to play around with in the Atlantic, in addition to the subs prowling about the Med, but it looks like by 1940 the Admiral Graf Spee had already been scuttled in Montevideo.  Maybe a lot of British ships will start the game down in the south Atlantic to represent the forces that were chasing it down.

Damn, I’ve been reading a lot about the German Kreigsmarine; either they had the worst luck or the British were the luckiest SOBs in the world: most of Germany’s significant ship losses start with the boilers or their radar being knocked out early in fights by lucky shots from severely under matched opponents… and then there was the Bismarck with its one-in-a-million rudder hit from the Mosquito’s torpedo shot.  Anyway, all these ships got gang-raped after being disabled; the Germans weren’t that stupid and knew what they were going against with the RN using only raiding tactics, and STILL generally rolled sixes all the time in A and A terms.

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Actually, Germany’s surface navy was really bad. As for the luck in hitting the boiler, there were tens, if not hgundreds of attacks, and a multiple number of places will cause a ship’s destruction.

[maverick_76]

@SgtBlitz:

Hopefully the dice will be more kind to the sad Kreigsmarine this time around in simulated board game universe land…  I mean, come ON, all the other Axis players get to have a fleet, why can’t Germany?

Tell that to Russia man, lol.

[WILD BILL]

@calvinhobbesliker:

@purplebaron:

@tkroll:

But I like the idea of a German Navy out of the Baltic.

Me too, though to be honest, I’ll be happy with the idea of a German Navy IN the Baltic without living and dying at UK’s whim.

I agree:
The Bismark & Tirpitz were both launched in early 1939 from their shipyards. The Bismark was commissioned 8-25-40, and the Tirpitz 6 months later 2-25-41. The Bismark started sea trials in the Baltic in Sep 1940, then went back to shipyard for modifications. Both Bismark & Tirpitz did more sea trials in the Baltic (at the same time) starting in March 1941. Hitler did an inspection of both ships in the Baltic in May 1941, just before the Bismark was sent to raid convoy’s in the Atlantic, and we all know how that ended. The Tirpitz (added to the Baltic fleet) was used as a deterrent during Barbarossa  to keep Russian ships from leaving harbor, then in 1942 was sent to the north shores of Norway, to raid shipping in the Arctic between UK & Russia, where it really didn’t do much.

So yea both ships launched prior to the games start, and had sea trials in the Baltic just before or after, so Germany should get 1 BB for sure. The Baltic will have some def w/Danish Straight, and the fact that UK ftrs can’t make it there and back is great for game play IMO. From what I’ve read the threat of these two ships in the right setting, tied up 50 to maybe 100 allied ships, that could have been used elsewhere.

I think the German Baltic navy will be about the same size as the Italian navy is in AA50. You will have to add pieces to it to keep it. You can use it in the Baltic to bombard and reinforce (like Italy does in AA50), or get ballsy and build a super fleet to come out and play with the big boys.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Then the British fleet should not be able to be sunk off Iceland by subs and planes.

Iceland will be able to scramble planes from an AB that I’m sure is there at game start. Uk will be able to send up planes to def RN, and so will US once at war. Iceland will be a landing spot for US heading to England.

[Raeder]

While I’m strongly in favor of Germany starting with a Battleship to represent Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst and Gneiseneu, I do not think that they should have a CV. Graf Zeppelin was never put to sea with fighters on it. If the German player wants a CV he will have to build one.

[WILD BILL]

This is true about carriers, neither Germany or Italy should start with one, but of coarse can build one. The G Zep was nearly ready several times, but they kept pulling the plug on it. I think I read some where that parts from the G Zep carrier were stripped and sent to Italy to attempt the completion of the Italian carrier Aquila. Germany gained control of Aquila after Italy surrendered, but it was damaged so neither ever got to use it.