North Korean sinking of a South Korean warship

[Guest]

@Dylan:

I am not American  :evil:

And thus the name, “Dylan the Canadian.” I don’t think I would have ever put two and two together.

[Dylan the Canadian]

@Brain:

@Dylan:

I am not American  :evil:

And thus the name, “Dylan the Canadian.” I don’t think I would have ever put two and two together.

People read that shit

[221B Baker Street]

@idk_iam_swiss:

I bet this will get locked and/or deleted. But you Americans need to stop getting involved in Asia. You don’t know how it works; And its none of your business. Let the two nations do what they want.

Interesting point of view…

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I’m not in favour of letting 2 nations ‘do what they want’ when one nation wants peace and prosparity for it’s people and the other nation has nukes and wants to conquer the other peaceful nation.  I’m not sure what the answer is but it can’t be “Let the bully win”.

The South now has full command and control of their integrated military force, that was just a recent accomplishment I think.  They have a duely elected government and can ask the US to leave anytime they want.  The fact a democratic government wants the US to stay, and the US is willing to help defend a friend should not be viewed in a negative.  I think in this case, peace is best achieved through a show of strength.

[Dylan the Canadian]

http://www.globalfirepower.com/ read this list
Important note: this list is based on everything except for nuclear weapons

[idk_iam_swiss]

Being the worlds babysitter is not my idea of diplomacy. You Americans pride yourself on “free speech” and “free agency” Until you disagree with whomever is speaking or if you disagree with what they are saying. Its wrong to tell people how to act and what to do simply because you disagree with them. Let the Koreans fix their own problems.

[221B Baker Street]

@idk_iam_swiss:

You Americans pride yourself on “free speech” and “free agency” Until you disagree with whomever is speaking or if you disagree with what they are saying. Its wrong to tell people how to act and what to do simply because you disagree with them.

Funny, I could substitute “Europeans” for “Americans” here and the statement would be just as valid.  For that matter, many leaders in the world today are full of themselves.  Just do a google search on statements from President Chavez of Venezuela sometime…This isn’t a problem just for Americans, but I think more of a result of todays world wide mass media where such behavior is fed.

That said, a conflict between the Koreas is going to have massive implications for the world, and as such the world has an interest.  S. Korea’s economy is nearly the size of Germany’s and a war could set off a world wide recession.  If it goes nuclear, the fallout could affect large parts of heavily populated areas of the world (China, Japan, Korea, maybe even the USA and Canada).  To say the USA or EU has no interest in what happens in Korea is, I think, a bit simplistic.  But I certainly do not relish the idea of another land war in Asia.

[Guest]

@idk_iam_swiss:

Being the worlds babysitter is not my idea of diplomacy. You Americans pride yourself on “free speech” and “free agency” Until you disagree with whomever is speaking or if you disagree with what they are saying. Its wrong to tell people how to act and what to do simply because you disagree with them. Let the Koreans fix their own problems.

Wow, you kind of sound like an anti-American.

[idk_iam_swiss]

I love America. I hate the way they handle foreign relations. Its either lay down and get walked on (This new president they have). Or offend everyone (The Last president). I the common answer is to tell other nations what to do and how to act. Thats really none of our concern. And no it will never get to warfare. The Koreans are Paper tigers, All bark and no bite (etc you get the picture).

[Imperious Leader]

Please keep this less political. Don’t mention presidents or other world leaders.

[MrMalachiCrunch]

North Koreans as paper tigers?  No doubt, in an all out war, the south combined with US firepower would roll up the North in about 6 weeks.  I would imagine in the world of AAA it would be a good stack of chips and pieces lost on both sides.  In the real world it would result in a few million deaths.  The north is a backward state about to collapse.  It can also rain down 1/2 million artillery shells per HOUR!!! on a Seoul a of city of 10 million and allied forces and sustain this for hours.  The artillery pieces have been dug into mountains for half a century.  The north knows their logistics would be toast in hours so they have weeks worth of food an ammunition for each artillery piece.

I think this article is the do all and end all of how the North would fight the war

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027-1.htm

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/04/is_north_korea_a_paper_tiger

[dinosaur]

Canadians are Americans unless my geography teacher and a few others entered into a substantial conspiracy.

I don’t think folks would say that a war between US and Mexico would be our own business, so I don’t agree that a war between N & S Korea is only their business.

It is my impression that the US Navy has allowed free trade over the world’s oceans except for a few minor periods and limited areas in the past 60 years.  North Korea’s actions threaten world wide stability and I don’t think it should be made light of nor ignored.

What would another nation do if one of her ships were sunk by another nation’s sub?  What if that nation were a European nation?

[Bardoly]

@dinosaur:

Canadians are Americans unless my geography teacher and a few others entered into a substantial conspiracy.

I don’t think folks would say that a war between US and Mexico would be our own business, so I don’t agree that a war between N & S Korea is only their business.

It is my impression that the US Navy has allowed free trade over the world’s oceans except for a few minor periods and limited areas in the past 60 years.  North Korea’s actions threaten world wide stability and I don’t think it should be made light of nor ignored.

What would another nation do if one of her ships were sunk by another nation’s sub?  What if that nation were a European nation?

Hear!  Hear!

[MrMalachiCrunch]

Canadians are North Americans.  No slight against my cousins to the south in the US of A, but they seem to have appropriated the name ‘American’.  I don’t know any Canadian who calls themselves an American, though some are called that…but I digress.

The first Korean war occured because of a policy speach which excluded S. Korea from the domain of interest of the US.  Kim Il Krazybastard took that as a green light.  Sounds similiar to the first Gulf War, again, an intimation was made that the US didn’t care about the fate of Kuwait.

The civilized world didn’t seem to care when a certain leader annexed Austria, then demanded the Sudentenland (sp?) of chechoslovokia (damn spelling and time constraints!).  That certain leader didn’t think anything would then happen when he invaded Poland.

Telling a bully to go ahead and have at it with your acquiescence against an innocent victim is no way to pevent a nasty ending for the victim or to prevent further bullying.  If Japan could not count on the US for defense then they would go nuclear, so would Taiwan and half a dozen other nations, at least!  I for one would not feel safer with 20+ nuclear states hostile to one another.

[Funcioneta]

@Dylan:

@idk_iam_swiss:

I bet this will get locked and/or deleted. But you Americans need to stop getting involved in Asia. You don’t know how it works; And its none of your business. Let the two nations do what they want.

I am not American  :evil:

What are you babbling? Suppossing that your nick reveals wich country are you from, you are as American as a Brazilian or as a Cuba or as a USA’s citizen  :roll:

Man, your language lacks a proper term for “USA’s citizen”. Yankee has negative connotations and is not accurate anyway for, say, Georgia or Florida  :|

[Funcioneta]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

No slight against my cousins to the south in the US of A, but they seem to have appropriated the name ‘American’.

It’s funny you say that, because it’s exactly the oppossite. USA’s citizens have appropiated the word ‘American’, at least in English  :lol:

[Funcioneta]

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I’m not in favour of letting 2 nations ‘do what they want’ when one nation wants peace and prosparity for it’s people and the other nation has nukes and wants to conquer the other peaceful nation.  I’m not sure what the answer is but it can’t be “Let the bully win”.

Mexico 1848, Cuba 1898, Guatemala 1954, Chile 1973, Granada 1983 … the bully won all the times (well, in 1848 and 1898 they had not nukes yet)
North Korea has a really bad ruler, true, but you have to apply the same rules for all bullies

[MrMalachiCrunch]

I thought that’s what I said…that the citizens of the USA have taken over the term ‘American’ to refer to themselves.  A noteworthy missing country was Iran 1953.  http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

Besides, this is entirely different.

In this case, the original attack was on a UN protectorate and the answer was relief by the UN.  My uncle saw action in Korea and came back with only 1 ear drum, luckily that is all he lost, I assure you he was not American or United Statesian as they should be called :-)  Technically, N. Korea violated a UN ceasefire and the response will be from the UN.  If N. Korea starts a war, the UN will respond and of course the US of A being the big dawg with the big bite will be at the forefront of the UN response.

Perhaps in those cases you cited the world should have said something, but more often than not, its the rest of the worlds corporate elites that benefit from many of the military actions of the few so they sit back and profit as in BP and Iran 1953.  Lots of people think BP had its roots as British Petroleum but no, it was British Persian.

It’s a different world now, repeating past mistakes is no way to move forwards.  Doing nothing means over a dozen countries going nuclear to defend themselves.  Great discussion so far by the way!

[idk_iam_swiss]

But its expensive and wasteful o fight everyone else’s battles for them. Its also a bit insulting in my opinion. It says that the smaller nations are too stupid to know whats best for them.

[Jermofoot]

@221B:

S. Korea’s economy is nearly the size of Germany’s and a war could set off a world wide recession.  If it goes nuclear, the fallout could affect large parts of heavily populated areas of the world (China, Japan, Korea, maybe even the USA and Canada).  To say the USA or EU has no interest in what happens in Korea is, I think, a bit simplistic.  But I certainly do not relish the idea of another land war in Asia.

Since when do wars cause recessions?  Historically, it has been quite the opposite.

I don’t think it would go beyond a local conflict.  Yes, many would get involved, but I doubt you’d see the likes of the Korean War 50 years ago.  I do think China and perhaps Japan are key players here.  North Korea has always been quite stubborn, but no one wants to take the effort to deal with them - you’d be in charge of millions on welfare.

@Funcioneta:

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I’m not in favour of letting 2 nations ‘do what they want’ when one nation wants peace and prosparity for it’s people and the other nation has nukes and wants to conquer the other peaceful nation.  I’m not sure what the answer is but it can’t be “Let the bully win”.

Mexico 1848, Cuba 1898, Guatemala 1954, Chile 1973, Granada 1983 … the bully won all the times (well, in 1848 and 1898 they had not nukes yet)
North Korea has a really bad ruler, true, but you have to apply the same rules for all bullies

Please, don’t stop there.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Perhaps in those cases you cited the world should have said something, but more often than not, its the rest of the worlds corporate elites that benefit from many of the military actions of the few so they sit back and profit as in BP and Iran 1953.  Lots of people think BP had its roots as British Petroleum but no, it was British Persian.

BP = British Petroleum.  I’ve never heard of British Persian and apparently neither has Google.  The same BP that is screwing up the Gulf of Mexico played a major role in overthrowing Iran.