Yep more political rules, glad its not going to happen, just makes my head hurt.
You can’t have Vichy rules without politics.
I think my idea is very simple: units of a defeated France will always surrender to a larger force. This is pretty much what they did…
I agree. I’m all for a more realistic game. The more realistic, the more fun. The only condition is a good rulebook to explain the rules leaving the reader in no doubt what the rules are.
You know I think I like Flashman’s idea better for Vichy France.
I know Vichy is messy and complicated but it WAS messy and complicated!
French units should turn into AXIS leaning Neutrals. Vichy never declared was on Britain or US but worked with the Germans, in fact the Laval cabinet was very PRO-AXIS and ANTI-BRITISH.
Any French units in territories with other ALLIED units should remain FREE FRENCH when France falls?
I know this is a complicated issue but it would be impossible to water-down or streamline it. I think it is one of the most fascinating and complex issues of WW2.
I would like to see a decent HOUSE RULE if it is not included in the Global game.
Yes, I agree with FMG, I hope Larry changes his mind on this one before it’s too late, if it’s not too late already.
its too late, and i have been thinking about this.
The only french units on the board will likeley be in Brittany, Vichy, and Central France
The central france stack “might” be big enough that germany has to attack it Round 2. And a G1 and It1 attack on Brittany and Vichy respectively is the propper move.
The only other french units will be, is suspect, a weak mediteranian fleet, that Italy decimates, an infantry in morocco, but not algeria, and 1 inf in Tunisia. And 1 inf in Syria
The only 100% ahistorical thing that is going to happen is, the french atlantic fleet is going to be big, and survive.
There wont “be” any french inits to even turn vichy when paris falls, except for the one in morocco and one in syria.
I guess the point is moot from larrys perspective.
its too late, and i have been thinking about this.
The only french units on the board will likeley be in Brittany, Vichy, and Central France
The central france stack “might” be big enough that germany has to attack it Round 2. And a G1 and It1 attack on Brittany and Vichy respectively is the propper move.
The only other french units will be, is suspect, a weak mediteranian fleet, that Italy decimates, an infantry in morocco, but not algeria, and 1 inf in Tunisia. And 1 inf in Syria
The only 100% ahistorical thing that is going to happen is, the french atlantic fleet is going to be big, and survive.
There wont “be” any french inits to even turn vichy when paris falls, except for the one in morocco and one in syria.
I guess the point is moot from larrys perspective.
What about French Indonesia?
I doubt larry would change the dynamic in the pacific by adding units there
if there are any, there will be 1. He wont turn vichy, and japan will just kill him with overwhelming airpower.
The central france stack “might” be big enough that germany has to attack it Round 2. And a G1 and It1 attack on Brittany and Vichy respectively is the propper move.
The only 100% ahistorical thing that is going to happen is, the french atlantic fleet is going to be big, and survive.
I think that They did have a big atlantic fleet. Bigger than Germany’s anyhow. And I read somewhere that Germany should be able to take Central France on round one if they devote enough, but that if they tried to shirk from all out, France might have a chance of surviving one round. I would think this would be Germany devastating if they survive to build any units.
I doubt larry would change the dynamic in the pacific by adding units there
if there are any, there will be 1. He wont turn vichy, and japan will just kill him with overwhelming airpower.
We shall see. Still there were French troops there and that should be reflected somehow.
Operation Torch will not be an option without Vichy France. :cry:
French Indonesia?
Is that the place the Yanks got their butts kicked?
You’re ignoring sub-Saharan Africa; there were major campaigns to get Vichy out of Senegal (Dakar) and Madagascar, since there was a major base at Dakar, and potential Japanese sub bases in Madagascar. Syria can be vital as a staging post into the Caucasus and Iran.
French Indonesia?
Is that the place the Yanks got their butts kicked?
You’re ignoring sub-Saharan Africa; there were major campaigns to get Vichy out of Senegal (Dakar) and Madagascar, since there was a major base at Dakar, and potential Japanese sub bases in Madagascar. Syria can be vital as a staging post into the Caucasus and Iran.
I want all of the Vichy France battles to be an option, but North Africa is a very likely battle in A&A.
@The:
The central france stack “might” be big enough that germany has to attack it Round 2. And a G1 and It1 attack on Brittany and Vichy respectively is the propper move.
The only 100% ahistorical thing that is going to happen is, the french atlantic fleet is going to be big, and survive.
I think that They did have a big atlantic fleet. Bigger than Germany’s anyhow. And I read somewhere that Germany should be able to take Central France on round one if they devote enough, but that if they tried to shirk from all out, France might have a chance of surviving one round. I would think this would be Germany devastating if they survive to build any units.
That is what has been on mind lately, the French Atlantic fleet. Historically, they did survive and endured a lot of punishment, from the Germans and their British allies. The former tried to of course intern the ships and put them to their own use, but the latter gave them two options; Swim with us, or sink right there!
I’m wondering how this will be equated, more so than any potential French land units. Not to mention the fleet strength and restrictions/rules. (Come on, you know that was coming)
We are all wondering. I think this could be the make or break for adding France to the game.
After Paris falls, and is held for one turn, I’m guessing the fleet, if anything of it is left, will be divided up. Maybe by dice roll, or perhaps when the Germans take a home port, or maybe if the fleet is near a British port. Thats something that would allow a Vichy element, without compromising what Larry said.
Another way this could work is that effectively the French fleet is still Allied, and lives on to fight another day. Of course, this does pose tremendous problems, so I’m hoping for the first scenario or something else like it.
Of course, we shouldn’t assume that the French fleet, when realized on the board will be too particularly large. My guess would be; 1 battleship, 2 destroyer, and/or 1 cruiser.
Any thoughts on this?
After Paris falls, and is held for one turn, I’m guessing the fleet, if anything of it is left, will be divided up. Maybe by dice roll, or perhaps when the Germans take a home port, or maybe if the fleet is near a British port. Thats something that would allow a Vichy element, without compromising what Larry said.
Another way this could work is that effectively the French fleet is still Allied, and lives on to fight another day. Of course, this does pose tremendous problems, so I’m hoping for the first scenario or something else like it.
Of course, we shouldn’t assume that the French fleet, when realized on the board will be too particularly large. My guess would be; 1 battleship, 2 destroyer, and/or 1 cruiser.
Any thoughts on this?
I’m thinking the second option there is the simplest and therefore most likely. Any surviving French fleet will just continue to exist as a French fleet as part of the Allies, just as a UK or Italian fleet would if London or Rome is captured. Yes, it’ll be kinda annoying to move it separately from the US/UK, but it’ll still be a help and might allow for some can-opener type naval attacks to keep Italy/Germany from destroyer blocking as much.
I hope that Free France can at least pop some infs from Brazzaville. Similar to China but without that eye-damaging ACME wall!
Okay, here are the house rules I use. I converted the starting forces from “World in Flames” to Axis and Allies, with a start date of June 1941.
XXI. Vichy French. Vichy units will not move or attack. Until attacked, any income from a Vichy territory goes to the German player. If a Vichy territory is attacked, roll a die for each Vichy unit prior to combat. On a roll of 1-3, the unit becomes Free French. On a roll of 4 the unit disbands and destroys/scuttles its equipment. On a roll of 5-6 the unit joins the Axis and is replaced by a German unit.
Vichy territories:
Southern France: 2 infantry, 1 battleship, 1 destroyer
Morrocco: 1 infantry, 1 battleship
Algeria: 1 infantry, 1 destroyer
