Affirmative Action

[Janus1]

I think this might have already been done on here, but whatever.
What are your feelings on affirmative action?

[cystic crypt]

also discussed ad nauseum, but you can find my opinions in the “white guilt” forum.
Suffice it to say i would take losing a position that i deserved because of hard work and talent to someone with less dedication, work ethic and talent because of a genetic distinction. Ultimately everyone suffers - the company/government/NG organization, the qualified candidate, and the less qualified minority (who is not suited to the position as well as others). Having said this, i have little problem with additional gov’t programs established to bring minority talent/education up to par.

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

truly, the government is wonderful at giving people jobs, etc. to people who have no skills, but are part of a “minority/underpriviliged group”.

[EmuGod]

@cystic:

also discussed ad nauseum, but you can find my opinions in the “white guilt” forum.
Suffice it to say i would take losing a position that i deserved because of hard work and talent to someone with less dedication, work ethic and talent because of a genetic distinction. Ultimately everyone suffers - the company/government/NG organization, the qualified candidate, and the less qualified minority (who is not suited to the position as well as others). Having said this, i have little problem with additional gov’t programs established to bring minority talent/education up to par.

You can’t forget that some minority groups suffer because of things like this. For example, the minority group I am in, the Jews, are not included in Affirmative Action or in any of these programs because Jews have been able to succeed without them. Also, when universities/colleges start assigning places based on the demographics of the American population then surely Jews suffer in trying to get into universities/collegesas we make up only 2% of the US population, yet we have made up the majority of university graduates (over 60% at Yale for example).

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@EmuGod:

You can’t forget that some minority groups suffer because of things like this. For example, the minority group I am in, the Jews, are not included in Affirmative Action or in any of these programs because Jews have been able to succeed without them. Also, when universities/colleges start assigning places based on the demographics of the American population then surely Jews suffer in trying to get into universities/collegesas we make up only 2% of the US population, yet we have made up the majority of university graduates (over 60% at Yale for example).

Separation of church and state, remember? Jews don’t because they’re a religion-at least that’s the way I see it.

[cystic crypt]

@Grigoriy:

@EmuGod:

You can’t forget that some minority groups suffer because of things like this. For example, the minority group I am in, the Jews, are not included in Affirmative Action or in any of these programs because Jews have been able to succeed without them. Also, when universities/colleges start assigning places based on the demographics of the American population then surely Jews suffer in trying to get into universities/collegesas we make up only 2% of the US population, yet we have made up the majority of university graduates (over 60% at Yale for example).

Separation of church and state, remember? Jews don’t because they’re a religion-at least that’s the way I see it.

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
For many Jews - being Jewish has more to do with culture, ethnic ties, and genotype and phenotype (i.e. genetics and how the genes express themselves) than religion. This is a people that may be considered to be bound by a covenant with God, but in strictly human terms, there is more to them than that.

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@cystic:

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!
For many Jews - being Jewish has more to do with culture, ethnic ties, and genotype and phenotype (i.e. genetics and how the genes express themselves) than religion. This is a people that may be considered to be bound by a covenant with God, but in strictly human terms, there is more to them than that.

:cry: I see. I really ought not to post when I have no idea what I’m talking about…then again, that might mean I’d have to quit posting. :wink:
Also, that doesn’t mean that’s not how the government sees them.

[Janus1]

It doesnt matter how Jews see themselves, either way, they are a religion. And this is off topic

[EmuGod]

@Janus1:

It doesnt matter how Jews see themselves, either way, they are a religion. And this is off topic

Then you are an Asian-American because I said so. It doesn’t matter what you look like, what your ancestry is or how you define yourself. you are an Asian-American because I decided that that it what you are.

[Janus1]

that logic does not follow. what im saying is, jews may consider themselves a culture, but either way they are a religion, straight up

[cystic crypt]

@Janus1:

that logic does not follow. what im saying is, jews may consider themselves a culture, but either way they are a religion, straight up

the fact that they are a religion does not change the fact that they are in minority as far as ethincity is concerned.

[EmuGod]

@Janus1:

that logic does not follow. what im saying is, jews may consider themselves a culture, but either way they are a religion, straight up

I know it does not follow. I was merely saying the same type of thing you were saying about Jews, only about you to show you how utterly ridiculous that statement is.

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

The point of what I said, no offense to anyone, was that if you look on a census, for example, Judaism would be listed under religion. It’s what the government states that was the point, and affirmative action doesn’t apply to religions as far as I know.

[EmuGod]

@Grigoriy:

The point of what I said, no offense to anyone, was that if you look on a census, for example, Judaism would be listed under religion. It’s what the government states that was the point, and affirmative action doesn’t apply to religions as far as I know.

People who understand Judaism know that it’s more than a religion, which is my point. It is a religion, a nationality, a culture and much more.

[Janus1]

I know, and my point is, in reference to this topic, and following Grigory, it is still a religion, whatever else it might be

[EmuGod]

@Janus1:

I know, and my point is, in reference to this topic, and following Grigory, it is still a religion, whatever else it might be

So how does that overrule the fact that it is more than that? You cannot classify it into one of these categories without changing the religion, which cannot be done.

[cystic crypt]

Grig and Janus1 - the angle that i’m getting from you would be akin to saying “well, afro-americans from the deep south are Baptists. As they are Baptists, then the fact that they are Afro-American is immaterial because of their religion”.
Really, you are missing the boat on this, i think.

[Grigoriy Ivanovitch]

@EmuGod:

You can’t forget that some minority groups suffer because of things like this. For example, the minority group I am in, the Jews, are not included in Affirmative Action or in any of these programs because Jews have been able to succeed without them. Also, when universities/colleges start assigning places based on the demographics of the American population then surely Jews suffer in trying to get into universities/collegesas we make up only 2% of the US population, yet we have made up the majority of university graduates (over 60% at Yale for example).

affirmative action
n.
A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.

This ought to be the end of this section of discussion. If the Jews wanted affirmative action, it would probably actually hurt them more then it aided them.

[cystic crypt]

@Grigoriy:

@EmuGod:

You can’t forget that some minority groups suffer because of things like this. For example, the minority group I am in, the Jews, are not included in Affirmative Action or in any of these programs because Jews have been able to succeed without them. Also, when universities/colleges start assigning places based on the demographics of the American population then surely Jews suffer in trying to get into universities/collegesas we make up only 2% of the US population, yet we have made up the majority of university graduates (over 60% at Yale for example).

affirmative action
n.
A policy or a program that seeks to redress past discrimination through active measures to ensure equal opportunity, as in education and employment.

This ought to be the end of this section of discussion. If the Jews wanted affirmative action, it would probably actually hurt them more then it aided them.

true.
just trying to correct some mis-information.

[Janus1]

Grig and Janus1 - the angle that i’m getting from you would be akin to saying “well, afro-americans from the deep south are Baptists. As they are Baptists, then the fact that they are Afro-American is immaterial because of their religion”.

No, because you said afro-americans, referring to a race. Judaism is not a race. Reread your statement, it is in no way the same.