Madagascar SZ

[BigBlocky]

Well, the rules sure implies this. However, I have yet to do any research at other A&A websites. I’ve always done bridging during non-combat, however, I always expected to lose a transport and a fighter when attacking the german baltic fleet if he rolls snakeyes for his transport and sub. It looks like I have been playing wrong for 20 years. Live and learn, tis the reason I sought out a place like this.

BB

[Guest]

@BigBlocky:

To be sure, it has a HUGE impact on the Japanese not being able to swap transports between Japan and Burma every round. As well the brits might not want to swap between the british home waters and african waters if it means 1 round of no bridging. Interesting indeed…

At least, the Japanese can bridge without moving their trannies to other territories.
Another interesting point: AFAIR the US strategy calls for shuffling units from Canada to Europe. This as well needs another turn to work (and another bunch of transports for a constant flow of troops).
This -at least one- “saved” turn could allow germany to be a small bit more aggressive in russia.

[morten200]

Although the rules say load OR unload, I don´t think this is to be taken litterally. It is written this way because an empty tr has to load something and a full tr has to unload something. Phrasing it like this: “Empty tr. … to either load, unload or load and unload.” would be very confusing indeed, but more accurate. Unless they actually mean that bridging shouldn´t be possible after moving … :cry:
Besides, the tr move isn´t over until it has unloaded. Although that rule was probably written to signify that a tr can´t MOVE after it has unloaded.

I don´t see how the litteral interpretation of the rule hurts USA. Please explain, F-alk.

[Guest]

Well, assuming you cannot load/unload and move in the same turn …
Usually, the US have some transports in the Atlantic (North Sea), build infantry in the US, which on the next turn moves to Canada, from where it is shipped to Norway and unloaded the following turn. The trannies stay on these coasts, next turn move back gather more Inf, return, unload etc.: a constant flow of soldiers from the US to Eruope
If you can’t load, move and unload in one turn, this cycle still can work, but needs more resources (a second bunch of trannies). This means you either start with not a flow of soldiers but a trickle, or you have a “pulsed” flow every second turn.
Of course, the first pack of soldiers will arrive one turn later than “usual”, as it has to spend one turn on board the trannies.
With the trannies it would be one bunch stands at canadian coasts and has loaded its Inf the last turn, the other stands near Norway and is empty. These bunches exchange their positions and load/unload.

One thing that came to my mind…
You can load troops onto a tranny during Combat Move, so, as long as your tranny starts next to those troops, it effectively can load (in CM), move and unload (in NCM). Not that it changes a lot (not of the scenarios discussed so far at least), you “just” need to double up the number of trannies to do the same work like “usual”.

[BigBlocky]

It’s messy but F_alk is right. However, if say norway was in enemy hands, the US for a combat move must move the transports to Canada and back to unload and attack. This is legal as it is defined in the combat phase. However, if the units don’t attack, then it’s NOT a combat move in theory and so the naval units ought not to have moved as they were not required to move in support of combat. So during non-combat, the wording says they can move and load or unload. Here in fact we are moving, loading and moving again, even that is not explicitly stated as being legal, though not explicitly stated as illegal as well. In any event if the transports can move after loading again then they can’t unload as it is worded as load OR unload and F_alk’s scenario must come into play.

Ah thinks we need to do some internet research on this one….

BB

[morten200]

I must be particularly dense today …. but I still don´t get it.

Page 16, section2: “A tr. can pick up cargo, move i or 2 sea zones, and unload the cargo all in the same move. The cargo can be picked up before, during or after the tr moves. For example, a tr could pick up i inf (oh , let´s just say from UK), move 1 zone (into eastern Canada SZ) and pick up another inf (from E Canada), move into another zone (back to UK waters) and unload both infantry (in Norway) all in the same move.” I´ve added the parantheses myself.

[Guest]

@morten200:

I must be particularly dense today …. but I still don´t get it.

Page 16, section2: …

covers Combat Moverment.

If you look at page 21, you will find the sequence already quoted by BB.

So, as far as i see it:
You can move and load/unload your transport as you wish during Combat move. You cannot load and unload during Noncombat move.
But, as far as i see, transports are an exception to the “usual” combat move rules, as they can move even into friendly sea zones during combat move (as they might have to unload for an amphibious assault).
This means, you can pick up, move, pick up, move again as a Combat Move, and unload during Noncombat Move.
Actually, the Battleship must be able to do non-combat moves during combat moves as well, otherwise the following rule does not make sense:
Battleship’s assisting fire for an amphibious assault, unless you have a big fleet and keep one or more out of the naval battle.

[morten200]

Oh ……

But this should then even things out for the Axis, right? I mean, it will take the US a lot longer than otherwise to load an impressive army into Norway.

[BigBlocky]

Well, from what I have read on the internet, there is a grey area. You can load infantry during combat movement although you never intend to use them in combat.

BB

[morten200]

Groan … I´m still confused. You can make combat moves without going into combat???

The so-called “shuck-shuck” strategy relies on loading and unloading in non-combat does it not?

[Guest]

Yeah, it does. The problem is that during non-combat it says you can move/load or move/unload. It says nothing about moving then loading then unloading. You must move transports during combat if you are going to do an amphib assult even though the transports themselves don’t do combat. So yes, in that case you can do combat moves without doing combat.

They make a special note of bridging but never mention moving the transport during bridging. If you can move your transport 2 spaces and load then unload during non-combat, then why all the special attention paid to the concept of bridging?

The book makes examples of a transport (pg 16 bottom middle column) in the UK sea zone dropping of to Norway AND Western Europe provided they controlled both, so then this must be a non-combat movement as you can’t put units in a friendly territory during combat movement unless ‘blitzing’ even then you move it through to the territory being attacked. So, you either loaded during combat and did nothing else, then unloaded during non-combat OR they loaded and unloaded during non-combat. Clear as mud yet? Page 21 Section #6, bottom middle column goes on to say empty transports can move to load, loaded transports can move to unload, provided my grasp of the English language is good enough, since it is the only non-computer language I speak it better be!

BB

[Xi]

@F_alk:

… This means, you can pick up, move, pick up, move again as a Combat Move, and unload during Noncombat Move.

I must disagree.
In my Second Edition Rules A&A Game Play Manual (with no applicable changes in the Rules Clarification[Third Ed.] pages, p.21, Column 1, Para. 1, it states “… you can move … units that you DID NOT MOVE (M. Bradley’s emphasis) during Action 2-Combat Movement.”

[Guest]

@Xi:

@F_alk:

… This means, you can pick up, move, pick up, move again as a Combat Move, and unload during Noncombat Move.

“… you can move … units that you DID NOT MOVE (M. Bradley’s emphasis) during Action 2-Combat Movement.”

Sure, i unload during NonCombat only, all the moving (and loading) has to be done in Combat Move. I thought i wrote that, (and if you read carefully, you should notice i did ;) )

[Xi]

WDF?

Second Edition Rules A&A Game Play Manual (with no applicable changes in the Rules Clarification[Third Ed.] pages, p.21, Column 1, Para. 1, it states “… you can move … units that you DID NOT MOVE (M. Bradley’s emphasis) during Action 2-Combat Movement.”

F_k,
My understanding of this rule is that …
If you moved it during Combat Movement,
then you CANNOT move it during
Noncombat Movement.

If you picked up a unit for transport and
moved said unit during Combat Movement,
then, according to the rules,
you CANNOT move or offload said unit
during Noncombat Movement.

===============================
I realize that I poste incorrectly on another
forum here about this yesterday. ARRRRRRGH!

[Guest]

I emphasize in your post

@Xi:

My understanding of this rule is that …
If you moved it during Combat Movement,
then you CANNOT move it during
Noncombat Movement.

If you picked up a unit for transport and
moved said unit during Combat Movement,
then, according to the rules,
you CANNOT move or offload said unit
during Noncombat Movement.

So,
according to the rules, you cannot move units in NCM that moved in CM.
We agree that far.
I disagree that “load/unload” is “move-equivalent”. Therefor, a unit that moved in CM can still be allowed to load/unload in NCM.
That’s what i think is correct and makes sense.

[cystic crypt]

@F_alk:

I emphasize in your post

@Xi:

My understanding of this rule is that …
If you moved it during Combat Movement,
then you CANNOT move it during
Noncombat Movement.

If you picked up a unit for transport and
moved said unit during Combat Movement,
then, according to the rules,
you CANNOT move or offload said unit
during Noncombat Movement.

you are correct. You may bring a trn loaded with inf to a battle in the E-MED (vs. the british sub), and either use it as cannon fodder, or if it survives the battle, it may unload into EGY. As it has no attack die (i.e. “0”) it does not participate in the battle per se, but may always receive an errant shell.

So,
according to the rules, you cannot move units in NCM that moved in CM.
We agree that far.
I disagree that “load/unload” is “move-equivalent”. Therefor, a unit that moved in CM can still be allowed to load/unload in NCM.
That’s what i think is correct and makes sense.

[BigBlocky]

I think CC might be onto something here. It’s been 17 years since I played the original Axis and Allies game by Nova, but I could have sworn we had to have twice as many transports as we do now because we couldn’t ‘bridge’. Mind you, we also played that you needed a transport to get from Egypt to Syria.

Everything under page 16 ‘transport movement’ is under the umbrella of combat movement. So, you can (load, move, move unload) as easily as (move, move, load, unload) as easily as (load, unload). You can even (load, move, move) or (move, move) but if you do either then the transport is finished and cannot then do any loading or unload just as surly as if it had unload 1 of 2 INF for combat, ie, it could then NOT unload the other INF during non-combat movement.

You could load a transport during combat, as long as it does not move it has not moved, it seems a tautology but it bears repeating. Loading is not moving and if it has not moved it has not moved.

So, if it ain’t combat movement then obviously you turn to page 21, Section 6 for Naval units. For any transports that have not moved the following applies: Anything that falls into this category {Empty transports, transports loaded with cargo} can be moved to friendly coastal territories to either load or unload.

This allows 4 potentially legal combinations:

A) Empty transport can load
B) Empty transport can unload (Can be safely ruled out)
C) transports loaded with cargo can load (Well, if it has 1 INF sure, 1 more INF)
D) transports loaded with cargo can unload. (Sounds good to me.)

Nowhere does it say you can load AND unload during combat movement except under combat movement when bridging is described. Since they give an example of bridging while NOT moving during non-combat it must be legal.

BB

[Xi]

Eureka!
If you have the A&A game play manual (Second Ed.) look on
p.24, col. 1, para. 3(AREA 2 COMBAT SPHERE) and
p.25, col. 1, para. 6 (AREA 2 COMBAT SPHERE ACTION) to
p.25, col. 2, para. 8 (AREA 2 COMBAT SPHERE ACTION.)

That settles the LOAD-MOVE-MOVE-UNLOAD argument (at least.)

Dagnabbit! I was so lookin’ forward to trying A&A with the
NO LOAD-UNLOAD('cept for bridging) on the same turn rule.

---

As I’ve said before … “read the rules” … it helps.

[BigBlocky]

I don’t think there is any doubt that during combat you can load, move, move and unload or move, move, load and unload.

On page 26 it shows a non-combat movement whereby they show a japanese transport loading and moving then unloading. This seems to contradict the language of load and move or move and load during non-combat.

BB