……and we got a winner :-D
Test
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Finally, I got a chance to respond in this thread.
F_alk, about what you said about other groups being targetted, I know they were and no one is denying that they were. But the others, such as the Roma, were not considered threats to Hitler’s “Aryan Race”. Unfortunately, around 50,000 of them were killed but many others were allowed to live in homes under strict living conditions. The Jews, on the ohter hand, were not so lucky. To the twisted Nazi psyche, the Jews had “tainted blood” and had to all be exterminated. The German peopple helped Hitler. Many Jewish children were publicly humiliated and beaten in German schools, by their fellow classmates and teachers. There were beatings in the streets and attacks such as Kristallnacht. The Germans knew EXACTLY what was happening.
Ozone, there’s a BIG difference between the Japanese and the Germans. As horrilbe as the Japanese were (and they were horrible), the Germans were much much worse. The German people helped Hitler to kill Jews and did so on the street. The Japanese might have known about the massacres in China and Indo-China, but there is a difference between seeing it and hearing about it. The German people and other European people lived near the concentration camps. They saw the misery and continued to hate the Jews and help the Germans. The Japanese may have heard about the military’s massacres, but think of fathoming that. It’s very hard to magine such genocide, so many would not believe it. And hte Germans didn’t just “gas them in camps”. Mny werre tortured in such things as Dr/ Mengele’s experiments. For example, he was eager to study twins so he took two identical Jewish twins from a family and sowed them together back to back like Siamese twins. The children suffered teribly and the parents gave them morphene and took Morphene themselves to stop their sufferieng. Another difference between what happened to the Jews and other mintrities in Europe. The Jewish children were targets while they were not in other minorities. Jewish babies had their heads smashed against birck walls in front of their parents, Jews were hung, forcedinto slave labour and even burned alive. There are many other stories of horrible atrocities that the Germans committed, many of them MUCH worse than Japan.
About General Patton, it surprises me that he did such a thing as he was an anti-semite himself. I guess the horrors of the concentration camps convinced him to renounce his anti-semitism.
If you think, Ozone, that modern governments do not operate on pride, that is your choice. WE cna analyze history differently and have our bitter arguements too. I don’t think the world has changed at all since the beginning on the 20th century or even before that. Pride is what runs countries. I still believe that the long range ballistic missiles were not the issue. Pride was. The Soviet Union would have looked horrible if it had withdrawn without some sort of victory against its arch-enemy, the United States. THe United States couldn’t withdraw because it would have looked bad if it had stood down in front of its rival, the Soviet Union. Each ahd to protect its pride. Modern day politics as you put it, are based on pride. Politics come a a result of each coutnry trying to protect its pride.
I still feel that the Germans deserved every bomb that hit them in Dresden and other cities. They helped Hitler with his crimes (don’t forget about the ghettos & that there were death camps in Germny too) and deserved the napalms and other weapons dropped on them. In crimes against humanity you mustresist even your government, and they failed to do so. It’s horrible that they had to suffer, but it was justice.
Nagasaki was America’s attempt to kick things up a notch. Hiroshima had been a military target and the Japanese had not surrendered. The next step up was to hit a civilian centre in order to show Hirohito that America would do whatever it takes to end the war, even wipe out the entire Japanese population. That forced Hirohito to rethink his position. His people woul die for him, and I’m sure he’d die for his people. But he wouldn’t want his people eliminated. So he was forced into the unconditional surrender. The winners of wars write history, that’s why Nagasaki may look like it had military value, but I still firmly believe that it did not, at least not anything negledgeable. Winston Churchill himself said that history would not look bad upon him for any of his decisions because he would be the oen who would write it. And looking at things today, Churchill was right. His decisions and the decisions of other leaders are accepted. I accept Hiroshima, but not Nagasaki.
Also Ozone, not ALL the Japanese government members were evil. Chiune Sugihara, the Japanese consulate in Lithuania, saved THOUSANDS of Jews by giving them visas that allowed them to travel through Japan to the Dutch Indies, Curacao I believe. Many Jews even settled in Japan herself and started the Jewish community there. The killers that you claim were just as bad as the Nazis, which I still disagree with, actually saved thousands of Jews from Hitler’s death camps. Ironic, isn’t it?
BTW, I am not anti-German. My father even studied in Aachen, Germany. He lived there for quite a while.
Moses, yo forgot to ask them if people form Frankfurt are called Frankfurters. I belive that they are called Hamburgers and Frankfurters. BTW, did you know that President Kennedy said in a speech ot the Germans, “Ich bin ein Berliner” which he thought meant “I am a Berliner”. It really meant “I am a jelly doughnut”.
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The reason, Ozone, that the Germans deserved to be bombed more than the Japanese is that they could have saved the Jews but chose not to. They helped Hitler. When Hitler tried to kill the handicapped, the German people told him not to. They stood in defence for the handicapped and Hitler backed off. They could have done the same for the Jews but they didn’t because of their anti-semitism. The Japanese, on the other hand, couldn’t stop the military from committing the rape of Nanking or other atrocities. They weren’t living among those that were being murdered and couldn’t have saved them like the Germans could have saved the Jews. And it wasn’t just the Germans who hated the Jews and didn’t help them. Almost ALL the nations of Europe allowed Hitler to commit his mass murders except for Denmark and Bulgaria.
As for your World War 1 ideas, the Czar did have no choice but to go to war. He had backed off from fighting Germany twice before and couldn’t back down again. The Kaiser also could not back down from war. You are right by saying that they could have if the leaders has chosen to, but I’m talking in terms of the reality of how countries run - on PRIDE. Every country runs on its pride. That’s the biggest reason for wars. Example, in the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviet Union and the Unitd States were an hour away from nuclear war because their country’s pride forbade them from standing down. War was only averted when the US agreed to abandon its listening posts in Turkey if Russia would not place its missiles in Cuba. This still kept both country’s pride intact. The US was able to tell its people that it had averted the Russian threat by giving up some worthless bases in Turkey while he USSR was able to tell its people that it had averted war and managed to eliminate some bery important American posts. Both countries were able to keep their pride, something that in World War 1 could not be done.
I agree with you that the emperors were stupid for going to war, but realistically, it could not have been averted without each country’s pride being dented and since pride is what every country works hardest to protect, the war could not have been avoided. World War 1 should not have been fought, but World War 2 should have. Someone had to stop Hitler and luckily he was stopped.
FinsterniS, I don’t mean to offend you, but the Germans were just as responsible for the deaths of the Jews as Hitler was. they could have stopped him like they stopped him from killing the handicapped, but chose not to. Germany has been paying back for what it did in the Holocaust, which is admirable and very important that it continues to help the Holocuast survivors. I only wish that other countries responsible for helping Hitler and have not admitted to it, such as Austria, would also pay the Jews back for what happened. I’m not anti-German, in fact, I believe that today the Germans are a great people. But there is no denying of the fact that the Germans helped Hitler in his massacres. Hopefully, such a disaster wll never happen again.
It easy to sit back and criticize 84 years later.
WW2 would not have happen if it wasn’t for the first World War.
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EmuGod
Your suggestion that every German is as guilty as the high-level Nazis, that order the liquidation of jewish people is very much an over generalization.
To say every German new about deathcamps( which in spite of what you say isn’t proved) and did nothing, is as guilty as the people who orchestrated it, Is like saying people who see a bank robber rob a bank and shoot a teller dead and do nothing to, are just as guilty as the bank robber.
Which is Dumb. -
“WW2 would not have happen if it wasn’t for the first World War.”
I don’t know about this. Maybe for the Europeans, but for Asians, Japan might’ve still went on with its expansionist pace. Also, even if World War I didn’t break out in 1914, there’s no telling that it could’ve occured again later.
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EmuGod i don’t agree and i find your remarks to be particularly cruel, nobody deserve to be massacre in useless attack. But i won’t try to argue anymore, i don’t like my position and i don’t want to side with the NAZI, however your assumptions are exagerated…
“I, and F_alk, are from Germany,
We are also representing the Atheistic Leftish European”FinsterniS is German? I thought he was some French dude. I know Strasbourg is on the border of Germany and France, but wha-what the hell?
I’m in France, but i am born in Germany (Not that i don’t like Germany !)
C’est beau la France :D … aber es ist heiss :(
“Weisswurst ? You are not vegetarian ?”
For all she probably knows, it’s probably some sort of German mustard. Heck, all I know is that it’s some sort of white sausage that is some [Southern] Germans are famous far.
Old bavarian recipies i think, anyway i doupt a vegetarian would eat that :)
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@TG:
“WW2 would not have happen if it wasn’t for the first World War.”
I don’t know about this. Maybe for the Europeans, but for Asians, Japan might’ve still went on with its expansionist pace. Also, even if World War I didn’t break out in 1914, there’s no telling that it could’ve occured again later.
Out of the few books I’ve read on WW1, all of the authors suggest that WW2 is a result of the actions of the first.
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“Out of the few books I’ve read on WW1, all of the authors suggest that WW2 is a result of the actions of the first.”
Even a blind man could see this, but I’m not entirely sure WWI could be averted either way. It was just a matter of time before the Powder Keg would have to errupt. As for WWII, Europe maybe, though I’m not sure Japan would’ve given up its dreams to expand had there not been a WWI.
“I’m in France, but i am born in Germany”
For how long? How many years have you spent in France and in Germany?
“BTW, did you know that President Kennedy said in a speech ot the Germans, “Ich bin ein Berliner” which he thought meant “I am a Berliner”. It really meant “I am a jelly doughnut”.”
Oh god, that is almost too hilarious! :lol:
“Also Ozone, not ALL the Japanese government members were evil. Chiune Sugihara, the Japanese consulate in Lithuania, saved THOUSANDS of Jews by giving them visas that allowed them to travel through Japan to the Dutch Indies, Curacao I believe. Many Jews even settled in Japan herself and started the Jewish community there. The killers that you claim were just as bad as the Nazis, which I still disagree with, actually saved thousands of Jews from Hitler’s death camps. Ironic, isn’t it?”
It’s also ironic how a Nazi Germany Embassy saved many Chinese from the rape of Nanking.
“I still feel that the Germans deserved every bomb that hit them in Dresden and other cities.”
Even if the Dresden people had known about the concentration camps (likely, since that was one reason Churchill gave for support for the bombing), at that time, half the people in the overgrown city were refuges of the advancing ed Army. Chances are that they had no idea of the concentration camps located near Dresden while they were fleeing.
“About General Patton, it surprises me that he did such a thing as he was an anti-semite himself. I guess the horrors of the concentration camps convinced him to renounce his anti-semitism.”
Yes, it’s been well reported that Patton was an “anti-Semite.” In fact he wrote in his entries that the Jews were “less than human” or something along those lines. However, I try not to take anything Patton said too seriously (except for that stuff about Eastern Europe, which he was dead right on). I remember that he also wrote that America, Great Britain, and Germany were the only countries worth a damn and together, they should take over the world. Then he goes on to say that the German people became Nazis exactly how Americans became members of the Democratic or Republican Party. But it contradicts the fact that he said ALL Nazi Huns should be murdered by the bushel. Latter on he goes against himself with his interesting denazification polices. And of course, Patton there were other things he said, like “all non-Christians deserve to go to hell," “Great Britain was responsible for WWI,” and “Anglo Americans were of superior blood…” a lot of it was tongue and check. In the military you have to have a thick skin, and Patton was not afraid to voice his opinion on the very people he branded! Never did Patton actually commit any “hate crimes” (such as on the Jews), so I assume that he was purposely being headstrong.
“Nagasaki was America’s attempt to kick things up a notch. Hiroshima had been a military target and the Japanese had not surrendered. The next step up was to hit a civilian centre in order to show Hirohito that America would do whatever it takes to end the war, even wipe out the entire Japanese population. That forced Hirohito to rethink his position. His people woul die for him, and I’m sure he’d die for his people. But he wouldn’t want his people eliminated. So he was forced into the unconditional surrender. The winners of wars write history, that’s why Nagasaki may look like it had military value, but I still firmly believe that it did not, at least not anything negledgeable. Winston Churchill himself said that history would not look bad upon him for any of his decisions because he would be the oen who would write it. And looking at things today, Churchill was right. His decisions and the decisions of other leaders are accepted. I accept Hiroshima, but not Nagasaki.”
This is absolutely false. I have no idea where you got the notion of “Americans wanting to kick things up a notch.” First, American did not have very many atomic bombs to spare – a big reason why they dropped the atomic bombs on Japan in rapid succession was to make the Japanese “think” that America had many more such bombs at their disposal. Due to the lack of bombs, the Allies had to choose their targets wisely, they could not resort to just dropping atomic bombs on entire civilian populations and hope for the best. In May 1945, Manhattan Project officials set up a committee to pick the best targets. The committee examined the range of a fully loaded B-29, identified cities undamaged enough to serve as a measure of the bomb’s destruction, examined weather conditions, and considered the military value of potential targets. By late July, the group had a list of four cities:
- Kokura, which had one of Japan’s largest munitions plants.
- Hiroshima, a major staging area for Japan’s army and navy and the site of several industrial plants.
- Niigata, a major port on the Sea of Japan with an oil refinery, a tanker terminal and an iron works.
- Kyoto, the former capital of Japan, a major industrial city with plants producing parts for machinery, aircraft and artillery.
Secretary of War Henry Stimson wanted Kyoto off the list because of its religious and historical significance to Japan. Gen. Leslie Groves, head of the Manhattan Project, wanted Kyoto to remain on the list because he believed it was a legitimate military target, and because its huge size made it a good gauge for the effects of an atomic blast. Stimson overruled Groves, and Nagasaki was added in Kyoto’s place. When it came time for the second mission, Kokura would be the target, and Nagasaki would be the backup. Nagasaki was a very vital industrial and military shipyard to the Japanese Kyushu Island. It contained two arms factories, a steel works, and the massive Mitsubishi shipyards. One factory made the same torpedoes used at Pearl Harbor.
In the mission the B-52 Bock’s Car (carrying “Fat Man”) passed over Kokura but the smoke from a steel factory bombed two days earlier hinder any dropping even after three passes. So Major Chuck Sweeney (bomber’s pilot) was forced to change its target Nagasaki (100 miles of his current position). Once over Nagasaki it’s no better: the city is clouded at 80% and the bombardier had to wait (I believe took four passes) for a hole in the clouds before targeting two Mitsubishi factories producing arms. Therefore, Sweeney was not intentionally targeting “innocent” Japanese civilians, and even risked detection by the Japanese in order to make sure that the bomb would land on a legitimate military target.
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Why was there so much anti-semitism back then anyhow?
Does anyone know? -
Emu–first of all, let me say I have been in agreement w/ you from the beginning about the Nagasaki thing. It had not yet been heavily bombed by 1945 because it was a very minor military target…
2nd–since you are so adamant, and there is no apparent way for me to prove to you the point, we can agree to disagree about the “pragmatism” vs. “pride” point in politics. Suffice it to say in passing that if what you say were true, we would all have been blown to atoms by nuclear weapons long ago. 'Nuff said…
As far as the Germans vs the Japanese–you are still dead wrong. All of the atrocities you have just stated the Germans being guilty of in WWII were also perpetrated by the Japanese–including the brutal murders of babies in China and the vicious “experiments” by Japanese ‘doctors’ on American (and other) P.O.W.s. That Japan is (and has historically been) one of the most racially homogenous nations on earth–and that therefore the atrocities occured (many times, though certainly not always)–on foreign soil HAS NO BEARING WHATSOEVER!!! The Japanese citizens were just as (if not more) inculcated in their belief in their own racial superiority as the Germans. They wouldn’t have cared one whit if it were in their own backyard.
On a lighter note–hey Falk! I’m heading to Germany on the 14th to visit my buds (in Luneburg)! Where are you headed?
Ozone27
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@Mr:
Why was there so much anti-semitism back then anyhow?
Does anyone know?Antisemitism has a long history in christianity.
It was “the jews who crucified our savior” etc. etc.
plus being a minority that had extensive rights/prosperity in the “lands of the infidels” (arabs). They must then of course be allied with the devil and be the ones who poision water to start another plague ……
or so …picking on minorities, that’s what it is…
together with being badly informed and listening to gossip and propaganda… (valid for all centuries) -
On a lighter note–hey Falk! I’m heading to Germany on the 14th to visit my buds (in Luneburg)! Where are you headed?
I will go back to germany next weekend…and then be in Hamburg, work further south (even south of Lueneburg). It would be fun if we manage to drink a coffee or play some A&A :)
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“Emu–first of all, let me say I have been in agreement w/ you from the beginning about the Nagasaki thing. It had not yet been heavily bombed by 1945 because it was a very minor military target…”
How many times must I have to debate this argument? First of all, Nagasaki, Kokura, Hiroshima, Niigata, and Kyoto were all important targets. Just because they had not been heavily bombed yet did not mean they wouldn’t be. Many of the targets had been previously bombed, though not to such a large extent as places like Tokyo. Even then, the highly destructive Tokyo Bombing Raids did not occurred until March 1945 – should this be considered a “very minor military target” based on the assumption it had not been “heavily” bombed pre-1945?
There are many other aspects to consider. From May-July 1945, many strategic planners opted to hold off on bombing those places (the five I listed) because they wanted the Manhattan planners measure the scope of the destruction. Furthermore, the entire scope of such bombing missions could not be widened enough until March and June 1945, when the islands of Iwo Jima and Okinawa were taken to provide B-29’s with landing sights for safe returns. This should be factored in with the availability of B-29’s from Saipan, Guam, and Tinian, in which to make such raids - a mere two months before the end of 1944 (the first group [498th Bomb Group] did not arrive until October 1944). Given such a grueling pace of operations with such sort start up time, is it reasonable to suggest that given 1945, all cities of “major” military targets had been heavily bombed?
Then there is Nagasaki to bring up itself. Nagasaki was a very valuable military and industrial target (as I mentioned many times before). It was often called the “San Francisco” of Japan due to its very valuable Naval Ports. In fact, Nagasaki held many of Japan’s vital [Mitsubishi] shipyards, along with an arrary of war production facilities.
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@TG:
“And it is surely not illegal to chew gum, whoever told you that seems to be an idiot.”
She’s probably referring to why the streets are so clean. Go to America (esp. our public school system) and see our sidewalks littered with the black spots from discarded gum. I have still not figured out why people do this? A trashcan shouldn’t be too hard to find.They do that in germany as well, esp. look at train and subway stations… They get cleaned every now and then though, so i don’t know how they compare …
“Otherwise try a local “Oktoberfest”.”
Wha– what the hell? Is this some sort of Russian beer?
Na, it’s the world famous bavarian beer festival… They even “exported” it, so you can see Oktoberfests in Melbourne or Japan :)
I have a question of my own, do Hamburgs call themselves Hamburgers? :lol: :wink:
The call themselves Hamburger (singular and plural is the same….)
And did you know why the Hamburger (the food) is called that? There is no ham in it! … It was first invented by a person from Hamburg :)Seriously? You are? I thought you were a deported German living in Australia? I’m sure I heard this somewhere before…
I am supposed to get back on friday … but i just received news that Quantas will be on strike that day AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH !!!
“I, and F_alk, are from Germany,
We are also representing the Atheistic Leftish European”FinsterniS is German? I thought he was some French dude. I know Strasbourg is on the border of Germany and France, but wha-what the hell?
There are two germans posting here regularly, and both do not live in germany …. that must be irritating :) :)
For all she knows, it’s probably some sort of German mustard. Heck, all I know is that it’s some sort of white sausage that is some [Southern] Germans are famous far.
It’s a asausage, and u usually serve it with Brezels (what you would call Pretzel) and a sweet mustard….yuck…
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F_alk, about what you said about other groups being targetted, I know they were and no one is denying that they were. But the others, such as the Roma, were not considered threats to Hitler’s “Aryan Race”.
They were considered “not part of that race” or “abnormal”. That was enough to get slaughtered.
There were beatings in the streets and attacks such as Kristallnacht. The Germans knew EXACTLY what was happening.
Some germans knew some things. Many didn’t want to know. If they knew, how comes that the most famous resistance group (Weisse Rose, white rose) printed flyers at their university.
When they started, they apparntly didn’t know much about the crimes that were done in the name of germany (though they learnt more about it later in 1942/43). In their second flyer, they state and accuse the killing of 300.000 Jews in Poland since the war has started (the second flyer was summer '42).
If even resistance does only know such a bit, i can’t imagine that “the usual” citizen knew much more.The German people and other European people lived near the concentration camps. They saw the misery and continued to hate the Jews and help the Germans.
The major death camps were in eastern europe. THe nazi regime was smart enough not to let too many germans know exactly about the death camps. The existance of concentration camps was well known, but they probably were perceived more as the british kind of concentration camp and working camp.
And hte Germans didn’t just “gas them in camps”. Mny werre tortured in such things as Dr/ Mengele’s experiments.
Even the Jews didn’t believe that “civilzefd germany” could do such things, and some refused to emigrate., thinking “it will get better”…. a horrible mistake
Another difference between what happened to the Jews and other mintrities in Europe. The Jewish children were targets while they were not in other minorities.
Mentally challenged kids suffered the same and were sent into the gas as well (one of the facts Sophie Scholl of the Weisse Rose learnt after she had started).
I still feel that the Germans deserved every bomb that hit them in Dresden and other cities. They helped Hitler with his crimes (don’t forget about the ghettos & that there were death camps in Germny too) and deserved the napalms and other weapons dropped on them. In crimes against humanity you mustresist even your government, and they failed to do so. It’s horrible that they had to suffer, but it was justice.
yes and no
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“Na, it’s the world famous bavarian beer festival… They even “exported” it, so you can see Oktoberfests in Melbourne or Japan ”
Nein, I not that big of a fan of German beer. Sure, they may go down easy, but the hang over is terrible – or so I heard.
“The call themselves Hamburger (singular and plural is the same…)
And did you know why the Hamburger (the food) is called that? There is no ham in it! … It was first invented by a person from Hamburg ”Well I know in the original story of the Hamburger, the patty was actually ham, not beef. Crazy Germans! :wink: So do people from Frankfurt call themselves Frankfurters then? Sweet!
“There are two germans posting here regularly, and both do not live in germany … that must be irritating”
Pretty sad, I expected more, I expected better. I much don’t much don’t like leaving my country for another – though there are some exceptions. :wink:
“I am supposed to get back on friday … but i just received news that Quantas will be on strike that day AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH !!!”
What is gawd’s sake are you doing in Australia anyways? And this time of year? The heat and bugs are unbearable!
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@TG:
Then there is Nagasaki to bring up itself. Nagasaki was a very valuable military and industrial target (as I mentioned many times before). It was often called the “San Francisco” of Japan due to its very valuable Naval Ports. In fact, Nagasaki held many of Japan’s vital [Mitsubishi] shipyards, along with an arrary of war production facilities.
…fine. Then EmuGod and I don’t agree on anything. Are you happy? :wink:
TM Moses–don’t believe it about German cities! American cities are cleaner (San Francisco anyways). Now, I love Germany with a passion, but facts is facts–you are a lot less likely to be hit by a hot blast of urine-soaked air in the USA than in Germany, depending on where you go (obviously New York vs. Bremerhaven is no contest, but still…)
Just my opinion–no offense intended…
ozone27
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@TG:
What is gawd’s sake are you doing in Australia anyways? And this time of year? The heat and bugs are unbearable!
Southern Hemisphere: summer = winter :)
And it’s not that bad, depending on the part of the country you are. -
“…fine. Then EmuGod and I don’t agree on anything. Are you happy? ”
Yes and no. Yes because it goes to prove Nagasaki was a justified target, and no, because I still feel guilt for us having to do it. What difference does it make between the civilians from Hiroshima and the civilians from Nagasaki?
”TM Moses–don’t believe it about German cities! American cities are cleaner (San Francisco anyways). Now, I love Germany with a passion, but facts is facts–you are a lot less likely to be hit by a hot blast of urine-soaked air in the USA than in Germany, depending on where you go (obviously New York vs. Bremerhaven is no contest, but still…)
Just my opinion–no offense intended…”
I don’t know, I’ve been to San Francisco recently and even though they have those neat, green “cleaner-mobiles,” it’s still not much to write home about. Their downtown metropolitan areas may be the best (better than LA and NY I reckon) in US, but the rest of it still has a lot of waste and gum on the streets. Anyways, even I feel like an “outsider” there – my friends and I like to make jokes with the locals saying we’re from LA and we don’t know any better :wink:
BTW: I like Germans/Germany too, but I was left a tad disappointed when I encountered some (even the new arrivals). Lets just say, don’t believe the hype.
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@TG:
BTW: I like Germans/Germany too, but I was left a tad disappointed when I encountered some (even the new arrivals). Lets just say, don’t believe the hype.
…please elaborate…! :)
Ozone27
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would be interesting to hear what kind of “hype” you are talking about…about germans :)……
i am quite curious
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