Prime Factor

[TG Moses VI]

“85% of people belive in “God”…ummm no.”

I think what YB was trying to say is that 85% of the world does believe in a monotheistic or pluraltheistic religion, which is likely true. However this still isn’t a good argument if you think that Christianity is the “true” religion and that the Christian God is the “correct” one.

[Mr Ghoul]

@TG:

“85% of people belive in “God”…ummm no.”

I think what YB was trying to say is that 85% of the world does believe in a monotheistic or pluraltheistic religion, which is likely true. However this still isn’t a good argument if you think that Christianity is the “true” religion and that the Christian God is the “correct” one.

I’m assuming he is referring to the Christan God.
It doesn’t really matter what God he uses, its not evidence.

The other 15% of people belive in Thor :lol:
Therefore Thor exists

[TG Moses VI]

yeah, that’s the problem with Christianity. Some Asian religions have been around a lot longer - are those people before Christianity “saved?”

[Mr Ghoul]

@TG:

yeah, that’s the problem with Christianity. Some Asian religions have been around a lot longer - are those people before Christianity “saved?”[/quote

From what I know, they would not be saved unless they converted from their religion.

Not that it matters anyway, its all nonsense.

[TG Moses VI]

You’re right, why believe in the first place?
Though you can never be too safe – which is why I try not to break any moral codes. :roll:

[Mr Ghoul]

You don’t have to be a religious person to be a good person with morals, thats for sure.

You dig on what I’m saying? :o

[TG Moses VI]

“You don’t have to be a religious person to be a good person with morals, thats for sure.”

Ha, you would be a welcome addition to my religion. :wink:

“You dig on what I’m saying?”

Right on soul brother! 8)

[Mr Ghoul]

@TG:

“You don’t have to be a religious person to be a good person with morals, thats for sure.”

Ha, you would be a welcome addition to my religion. :wink:

“You dig on what I’m saying?”

Right on soul brother! 8)

LOL, tight

[yourbuttocks]

First Ghoul, I said that 85% of the population believes in a mono theistic God.

33% are Christians
Over 20% are Muslims
20% are Hindu
right there you have about 3/4 of the population
plus Sihk,Jews, Zoroastrians, etc.
You are right, the number is more like
80%
My mistake.
Note: All except for Hindus, believe in the exact same God (rather than simply are monotheistic)
Budhists, while not exactly theistic, kind of count.
With them it would be More like 85%

Second, Ghoul and Moses, what reason is their to be moral without religion? If you steal something, and are not caught, is there any reason to feel guilty if it does not really hurt the victim?

Third, Fisternis, no one has ever had the reason to believe that the tooth fairy is not a lie told to children. The same is not true about religion.

Fourth, Fisternis, your comment about how that it is stupid believe that the uncaused cause is God, that is the most basic definition of God is uncaused causer. That is general. Christians contend that the uncaused causer has revealed himself to his children.

Fifth, Moses, what denomination is your sister?

Sixth, Moses, take this test now:

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

[TM Moses VII]

“Fifth, Moses, what denomination is your sister?”

Is this the ‘religious discussion’ you are talking about, Sir yourbuttocks? I am Anglican and attend St. Thomas’s Episcopal Church. However, I am also a believer that anybody with a divinity toward Christ shall be accepted by his good graces.

“Sixth, Moses, take this test now:”

I took your test, and I came up centrist, is this good or not?

[cystic crypt]

My support of the “85%” argument is simply that if it is unlikely that the concept of “god” to be the product of some psychosis, or a simple irrational (childlike - if you will) belief - i.e. there are more numbers supporting a real “god” than the number of crazy people who also support a real “toothfairy”. Also - most people do not know how to treat a sickness, however clinical trials use many people to show us how to treat an illness, and we use the numbers to determine whether or not to use a drug.
Also - it is unscientific to say “God created the world - i know for a fact” just as it is also unscientific to say “There is no God - i know for a fact”.
Also science is not the enemy of religion, but a complimentor of it. But we’ve been through this before.
With regards to the staying power of Christianity - i was referring to the fact that so many people are martyred for their faith, keeping Christianity and various sects of it alive. That’s kind of: A) crazy or B) evidence of something powerful working in their lives.

quote: “But when someone he saying that the fact most people on earth believe in god constitute an argument for religion; that is just really funny and the only answer i can give to that is; this is fallacious. If i say; X is the greatest genius, he did not believe in god, then god does not exist, that is clearly fallacious, what will you say to that ?”

i would probably say :asphinctersayswhat?
Really, i don’t know. you havn’t really posed a question. You are correct, that statement would be fallacious, but again, i think that YB’s argument is that there might be something behind a concept if it is widely supported. Maybe not always a good thing, but there is a real force behind it.

[FinsterniS]

First YB, Most buddhist does not believe in a personnal god, they are NOT theist in a very large proportion.

And i am a left-liberal, so you have the right to call me a leftish-european.

@cystic:

My support of the “85%” argument is simply that if it is unlikely that the concept of “god” to be the product of some psychosis, or a simple irrational (childlike - if you will) belief - i.e. there are more numbers supporting a real “god” than the number of crazy people who also support a real “toothfairy”.

I partially agree

First i agree that it is not a mental sickess, but it IS an irrational belief for most people.

We must look at the history behind religion, in the first step of judaism, the Hebrew create a global philosophy, just like Plato and Aristotle, that was an explanation of Moral, of the Human race, of Animals and also of Nature. A religion is a philosophy frozen in time, it does not evolve, or if it does; very slowly.

Also - most people do not know how to treat a sickness, however clinical trials use many people to show us how to treat an illness, and we use the numbers to determine whether or not to use a drug.

Most people does not have any reason to believe in god.

Also - it is unscientific to say “God created the world - i know for a fact” just as it is also unscientific to say “There is no God - i know for a fact”. Also science is not the enemy of religion, but a complimentor of it. But we’ve been through this before.

I disagree, there is nothing unscientific not to believe in a myth created by human being 2 000 years ago, if there was evidence for god, i would be more sceptical, but what i heard is only fallacious argument, scientific deformation, attack against current scientific theory (well, that’s a fallacious argument) and the “There is so much evidence you just don’t see them” argument… So i won’t be convinced easily.

I have not a lot of certitude; but god is a lie. I am as certain he does not exist as i am certain the earth is not flat, and every year.

With regards to the staying power of Christianity - i was referring to the fact that so many people are martyred for their faith, keeping Christianity and various sects of it alive. That’s kind of: A) crazy or B) evidence of something powerful working in their lives.

We can argue forever about it, i cannot disprove god by A and you cannot prove god by B. But people die for other false god, for other religion, human sacriface were common in some polytheistic religion. Were they fool ? Sure they did not all decided to do so… but somes does.

Really, i don’t know. you havn’t really posed a question. You are correct, that statement would be fallacious, but again, i think that YB’s argument is that there might be something behind a concept if it is widely supported. Maybe not always a good thing, but there is a real force behind it.

Sure there is a real force behind religion ! The will of those who strongly believe is the force behind religion. People in general are really slow, i don’t think evolution is a very common belief, while most scientist are’nt working on proving evolution occur anymore but just how it occur.

[Guest]

@yourbuttocks:

Falk, where did the matter for the Big Bang come from?

as i said SIGH:
the matter (and antimatter) came into being out of energy. Where does the energy come from would be your next question…. The answer is: where is zero potential energy? Maybe we are “deep in the red” with our (local, solar system, galactic) energy balance, and if you add up all the universe come up to zero… do you know? can your god tell me?
And of course: why does god create a universe that will turn into a huge totally lifeless, totally formless sea of (very low frequency) radiation? Any reason for that?

If God does not exist, why then do:

…85% of the population believe in him?

Well, at least 85% do not understand quantum mechanics. Why does it work anyway?

…natural law/intrinsic concience exist?

natural laws exist, they are uncaused cause, therefore they must be god.

…miracles, such as Fatima, hundreds in this century alone, occur?
…people have a built in need for him? (God-Center of the brain)

You put way to much interpretation into the “god module”. The egg was there before the hen? The hen before the egg?
This “god module” seems in religious ppl to be more active than in others. So, i cliam, you want a god, because your god-module is very active.
See:
http://www.parascope.com/articles/slips/fs22_3.htm
or for a funny view:
http://www.catalaw.com/detox/reverse/10.shtml

…the Catholic Church, the longest lasting institution in the history of man, continue to thrive, continue to exist, even after periodic corruption, schisms, revolts, etc.? Every HUMAN institution is crushed by similiar burdens.

what do you understand exactly by institution?

[Guest]

@yourbuttocks:

Second, Ghoul and Moses, what reason is their to be moral without religion? If you steal something, and are not caught, is there any reason to feel guilty if it does not really hurt the victim?

Maybe because you don’t want people to steal from you? That would be the idea behind the christianity (an i dea which i like), but you don’t need a god for defending this concept, as it is a “good” and admirable concept on its own.

Fourth, Fisternis, your comment about how that it is stupid believe that the uncaused cause is God, that is the most basic definition of God is uncaused causer. That is general. Christians contend that the uncaused causer has revealed himself to his children.

Well, if you define god as this, then of courseit must have been “the earliest” thing

Sixth, Moses, take this test now:

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

According to the quiz i am left-liberal. Nothing new to me.

[TG Moses VI]

“Second, Ghoul and Moses, what reason is their to be moral without religion? If you steal something, and are not caught, is there any reason to feel guilty if it does not really hurt the victim?”

It’s my obligation to the Code of Honor. My parents are atheist, yet they raised me with a adherence to morals and integrity. By saying otherwise, it would seem that only those with “religion” have morals. False. I know of plenty of “Christians” that commit heinous crimes with no respect or reason for moral standards or conduct. Even in pre-Christendom Japan, there was the Code of the Bushido that was obeyed with honor and respected - even if it meant paying it with their lives.

“Sixth, Moses, take this test now:”

I took your little “test” and I came up with Right, Libertarian Centrist. Unsurprising, isn’t it? However, this test was poorly done. It has such questions as “Repeal regulations on sex for consenting adults,” yet there are no questions on abortion, which is a more “important” (meaning more debated) issue between the parties. Then it places other inconsistencies by placing military under “personal issues,” when it is also a “economic issue.” It limits itself 2 categories, a major fallacy. Then again it is a simple “test,” and provides no clear indication whatsoever when following political agendas and guidelines. I would like to top it off by saying, your test came from a libertarian website, correct? I found this to be a little partial (trap to lure unsuspecting people into their flock)

[Mr Ghoul]

@yourbuttocks:

First Ghoul, I said that 85% of the population believes in a mono theistic God.

33% are Christians
Over 20% are Muslims
20% are Hindu
right there you have about 3/4 of the population
plus Sihk,Jews, Zoroastrians, etc.
You are right, the number is more like
80%
My mistake.
Note: All except for Hindus, believe in the exact same God (rather than simply are monotheistic)
Budhists, while not exactly theistic, kind of count.
With them it would be More like 85%

Second, Ghoul and Moses, what reason is their to be moral without religion? If you steal something, and are not caught, is there any reason to feel guilty if it does not really hurt the victim?

Third, Fisternis, no one has ever had the reason to believe that the tooth fairy is not a lie told to children. The same is not true about religion.

Fourth, Fisternis, your comment about how that it is stupid believe that the uncaused cause is God, that is the most basic definition of God is uncaused causer. That is general. Christians contend that the uncaused causer has revealed himself to his children.

Fifth, Moses, what denomination is your sister?

Sixth, Moses, take this test now:

http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html

Actually. you said 85% of the people belive in god

You suggestion that one has to be religious to have morals is ridiculous.
I dont have to worship something to be kind or have decent character.

Why would anyone worship something that demands it or punishes you in a burning “Hell”
Makes you wonder why Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels revolted and who the real malevolent ones are?

1/3…thats alot of fallen angels.

[TG Moses VI]

“Why would anyone worship something that demands it or punishes you in a burning “Hell””

It is meant to keep people in check.

[Mr Ghoul]

@TG:

“Why would anyone worship something that demands it or punishes you in a burning “Hell””

It is meant to keep people in check.

Ya, I know I’m just ranting.