I went when I was really young. I think I mainly visited resorts and amusement parks.
Prime Factor
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You really seem to get off on this belief that Christians want you to go to hell. It may not be a bad idea to consider that the hell you are speaking of is one that may be yours of your own making - purposely pushing your way as far from God as possible, that you would never be reconcilled to him.
It’s an easy assumption with no real basis. The fact is i don’t believe in god, and i find the concept of Hell so ridicoulus i’m often speaking of it, with sarcasm. CC you are playing Butt game of personnal “attack”, this is useless and a good way NOT to argue.
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You accuse me of personal attacks, you started them.
You accuse me of not proving anything, and yet you have not proved anything.
You accuse me of undue emotion, yet you speak of hate of religious.
Lets go back over our argument on the existence of God:
Logic
Me: Everything in the Universe has a cause, thus there must be a chain of cause(s) leading to the universe. The chain must start with an uncaused causer.
You: Everything has always existed, it simply changes form.
-How come you say you logically come out on top and I come off logically ignorant? What is so much more logical about your logic?
Complexity of People
Me: Odds are unlikely of such a complex life form like man forming accidentally.
You: People are arrogant to assume a personal creator. And the odds are so good that an ultra-complex life form would form up that hundreds of planents have them.
-Here it is something of a toss up. How exactly are we suppossed to calcuate the odds of complicated life forming?
MIracles
Me: Fatima, Turin, Janarius, Guadaloupe, Bodies of Saints, Crying Mary, for some of the more modern ones which come to me off the top of my head.
You: The gregorian calendar was changed, and carbon 14 tests are 100% infalible. Plus miracles are empiric. (What does that mean? How does it in your mind rule out miracles as proof?)
-You didn’t really counter miracles, not even the tiny fraction of them I actually listed.
Evolution/Begining of Earth
Me: Evolution does not disprove anything. God exists outside of time; he created it. Thus how the way he created the Earth appears to us is in material.
You: Creationism is illogical and unscientific. Thus religion is also.
-Since creationism does not have to take the form you have critisized, your critisism does not neccessarily apply.
Myth
You: People create myths like religion to make them feel better.
Me: There is a lot more to Christianity than myth.
-This is very circular, but on both sides.
Now I can understand why you believe you come out on top. However, I don’t see why you call me ignorant, and my arguments garbage. Whats up? Is it because I disagree with you?
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You accuse me of not proving anything, and yet you have not proved anything.
That is just ridiculous, i don’t have to prove god does’nt, that is VERY hard to prove somethin that does’nt exist really does’nt exist. Try to proove the tooth fairy does’nt exist.
Me: Everything in the Universe has a cause, thus there must be a chain of cause(s) leading to the universe. The chain must start with an uncaused causer.
You: Everything has always existed, it simply changes form.
You are making me says somethine i never said. i said, i will repeat it even if it’s not the first time; i said the TWO OPTIONS ARE POSSIBLE.
The chain must start with an uncaused causer.
Completly ridiculous…. That is the kind of argument that have been refute several time but people don’t want to listen…
Even if there’s a start (highly probable LIKE I ALREADY SAID), theres no need for god… You are trying to counter several logical concept. I will refute it very briefly… more explicitly if it is needed…
The only thing god add to the chain is the “Uncaused”, while this argument seem valid at first (Aquinas, Descartes…), it is completly illogical and a good exemple of how people want to believe.
Why god does’nt need a cause but others things (like Law themself) does ? Laws are outside time & space, they don’t have position, they just exist, so they seem not to need anyone to create them. They don’t act nor react, they do not influence the universe, they form it. They seem to have everything to be the uncaused cause, the permanent stability.
Then you will say; god create law.
The fact is; god cannot be more fit for “Uncaused cause” than law themself… Then it is just adding an useless concept to something already “explained”. (occam’s razor; basic logic). You cannot say god create the universe because it can be explained without god.The PRIME FACTOR argument is even more illogical than the ORDER NEED ORDERER argument.
You are using pretty old argument, while this does’nt make it false it have been often refute. For this reason, theist mathematician always use the “Faith” argument, not the “logical one”.
Me: Odds are unlikely of such a complex life form like man forming accidentally.
You: People are arrogant to assume a personal creator. And the odds are so good that an ultra-complex life form would form up that hundreds of planents have them.
Never said that !!!
I will make an analogy;
Roll 1 * 10^6 die,
If you get 1 * 10^6 time the number 6, you’ll have a baby.
If not; you’ll have no baby.If the baby never came to existence, will he ask question about his existance ?
Also we don’t know how improbable life is, this is many a far more natural phenomena, maybe not, but anyway, we exist. So saying life is improbable so i god must have guide it is a little prematured.
You are right that i think religion is taint with misplaced arrogance.
Me: Fatima, Turin, Janarius, Guadaloupe, Bodies of Saints, Crying Mary, for some of the more modern ones which come to me off the top of my head.
You: The gregorian calendar was changed, and carbon 14 tests are 100% infalible. Plus miracles are empiric. (What does that mean? How does it in your mind rule out miracles as proof?)
That is not me; it is F_alk. Only the Empirical was mine. As i said i don’t want to speak empirical problem in this topic; too neboulus and too easy to proove anything.
Me: Evolution does not disprove anything. God exists outside of time; he created it. Thus how the way he created the Earth appears to us is in material.
You: Creationism is illogical and unscientific. Thus religion is also.
I NEVER SAID THAT !!!
Sure creationism is unscientific, but you are adding the “thus religion is also”. That is not logical… Relgion is a bunch of lies and it breed lies, but to say “creationism is false; so do religion” would be an easy, but illogical argument.
You: People create myths like religion to make them feel better.
Me: There is a lot more to Christianity than myth.
wow ! you actually quote me right… Again, we can discuss this for eternity so i won’t continue on the subject…
Now I can understand why you believe you come out on top. However, I don’t see why you call me ignorant, and my arguments garbage. Whats up? Is it because I disagree with you?
No, you are just using a big bunch of logical fallacies…
When i’m speaking of Argumentum ad ignorantis; that is in a very large way… I mean; is something we understand need the concept of god anymore ? …and before ? When there’s some darkness in any subject, the concept of god pop up from nowhere until we really understand the real cause. That is historical… but you could always try to refute that, anyway this is the kind of discussion i don’t want to have… I was just explaining why i accuse religion of “ignorance”.
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You accuse me of personal attacks, you started them.
You accuse me of not proving anything, and yet you have not proved anything.
You accuse me of undue emotion, yet you speak of hate of religious.
(snip)
MIraclesMe: Fatima, Turin, Janarius, Guadaloupe, Bodies of Saints, Crying Mary, for some of the more modern ones which come to me off the top of my head.
You: The gregorian calendar was changed, and carbon 14 tests are 100% infalible. Plus miracles are empiric. (What does that mean? How does it in your mind rule out miracles as proof?)
Sorry kiddo, you are ridiculous.
I told you once that i am not Finsternis.
You don’t listen.
I will not continue except for this and the next posting:Something for you to remember:
I was the one going into your arguments, working on them etc. You have not even tried to listen to what i say, otherwise you would have noticed that i am not Finsternis.LISTENING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF AN ARGUMENT !!!
If you don’t learn that, then neither i or your god or any god can help you!
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Logic
Me: Everything in the Universe has a cause, thus there must be a chain of cause(s) leading to the universe. The chain must start with an uncaused causer.
You: Everything has always existed, it simply changes form.
-How come you say you logically come out on top and I come off logically ignorant? What is so much more logical about your logic?
Excluding god from the need of having a cause, but not the universe, is illogical.
Complexity of People
Me: Odds are unlikely of such a complex life form like man forming accidentally.
You: People are arrogant to assume a personal creator. And the odds are so good that an ultra-complex life form would form up that hundreds of planents have them.
-Here it is something of a toss up. How exactly are we suppossed to calcuate the odds of complicated life forming?
You are the one who claims the odds are too low for accidental forming. How low are they? You brought up this as a proof for god, your turn to derive the formula to show me the odds.
An approximate formula has been given elsewhere by Moses (afair) anyway. Read what is written!
MIracles
Me: Fatima, Turin, Janarius, Guadaloupe, Bodies of Saints, Crying Mary, for some of the more modern ones which come to me off the top of my head.
You: The gregorian calendar was changed, and carbon 14 tests are 100% infalible. Plus miracles are empiric. (What does that mean? How does it in your mind rule out miracles as proof?)
-You didn’t really counter miracles, not even the tiny fraction of them I actually listed.
Where did i say C14 test are infallible?
DONT F%CKING LIE WHEN QUOTING ME !
READ WHAT I WROTE !!Damn, i should be old enough not be angered by your ignorance.
( Horten, please note that yb is a prime example of the behavior to feed my prejudices)(snip)
Now I can understand why you believe you come out on top. However, I don’t see why you call me ignorant, and my arguments garbage. Whats up? Is it because I disagree with you?I call you ignorant, because you don’t read postings, you don’t try to follow the arguments of your opponent. You reiterate what you have written before, that’s all, but doesn’t change the truth in a statement.
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This is a fairly intense series. Shouldn’t we be having more fun then this? I mean, fun debate topix and all, but we all seem to be getting a little “foamy at the mouth-y” about it. Let’s all get together for a beer (YB - you only get rootbeer - you’re too young for beer - unless we meet on FinsterniS’ turf), and we’ll have a nacho fight. First one to get salsa in someone else’s eye loses.
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cc,
you are right with that…as said before, i will not go on writing in this thread.
should anyone start more of these christianity threads, i might step back in there though.I like the nacho fight idea…
greetings,
Falk -
YB - sorry I haven’t return posted sooner. I thought of those miracles you listed AFTER I posted. I’ll admit - they are a mystery to me. I don’t know what to make of them, and I’m not really familiar enough with the phenomenon to give you a fair opinion. More research for me! I will state that it is possible that this phenomenon may be occurring outside the religious realm. Although this seems like a longshot, I’d like to stay open for ALL possibilities. But I’ll still say however, Bigfoot using our current view of evidence, has a better shot. Prints and sightings - OH MY!!!
I see the posting got a bit nasty in my absence! CC - you get points for your attempt to calm things down! I’ll have to review what our friend FinsterniS has to say about the Christian related miracles. Keep it clean, all…
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“Horten, please note that yb is a prime example of the behavior to feed my prejudices”
should i hate whatever country you come from because of you alone?
can i hate black people because they cut me on line at “Splash Down” when i was a kid? No.
Nothing should feed prejudice of a race…just personal hatred :)
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Sure, Horten,
i just wanted to show you how my prejudices first came into being, and how they are constantly fed. As is said somehwere before most of the americans i have met online and in real show this or very similar behaviour. The few, who don’t show it, then make “the exception to the rule/prejudice” :).
But to ensure you, it more a personal thing……One of the main reasons why i bring that prejudice up again and again is that you go for it like it was the best bait ever :). It’s some kind of self forfilling prophecy: criticize the US, wait for response, pick the one who fits into the prejudice, let it all escalate, have a lot of fun :)
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@F_alk:
Sure, Horten,
i just wanted to show you how my prejudices first came into being, and how they are constantly fed. As is said somehwere before most of the americans i have met online and in real show this or very similar behaviour. The few, who don’t show it, then make “the exception to the rule/prejudice” :).
But to ensure you, it more a personal thing……One of the main reasons why i bring that prejudice up again and again is that you go for it like it was the best bait ever :). It’s some kind of self forfilling prophecy: criticize the US, wait for response, pick the one who fits into the prejudice, let it all escalate, have a lot of fun :)
so I fit your prejudice? To tell you the truth, almost every European I met online was arrogant, holier than thou, and American hating-this forum is nothing.
I just can’t hate a race of people because there might be a lot of assholes. But if I am speaking to the intellectuals of Europe, this planet is in a far more worse position than we can ever dream of.
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Falk, and Fisternis sorry about mixing the two of you up, you post a lot and have similiar ideas.
Oh and Fisternis, what gives you the right to ban empirical evidence from this conversation?
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@F_alk:
Sure, Horten,
i just wanted to show you how my prejudices first came into being, and how they are constantly fed. As is said somehwere before most of the americans i have met online and in real show this or very similar behaviour. The few, who don’t show it, then make “the exception to the rule/prejudice” :).
But to ensure you, it more a personal thing……One of the main reasons why i bring that prejudice up again and again is that you go for it like it was the best bait ever :). It’s some kind of self forfilling prophecy: criticize the US, wait for response, pick the one who fits into the prejudice, let it all escalate, have a lot of fun :)
so I fit your prejudice? To tell you the truth, almost every European I met online was arrogant, holier than thou, and American hating-this forum is nothing.
I just can’t hate a race of people because there might be a lot of assholes. But if I am speaking to the intellectuals of Europe, this planet is in a far more worse position than we can ever dream of.
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yuuuhuuu Horten,
where did i say that you fit my prejudice?
where did i say i hated all americans?
it’s not that hard and doesn’t hurt to read carefully, i promise :)And what do youe man by your last sentence?
The world is in a pretty bad condition, and needs cooperation by all humans and states, if that (problems of global scale) is what you are refering to. -
Well, HFW does have a point. America has set itself up quite nicely to be criticized by Europeans etc. if only because of it’s immense power, economic structure, military machine, and apparent indifference to the world that it exercises so much influence (unless, of course, a given part of the world is involved in bombing it or something - know thy enemy).
It’s not really fair. America is home to great intellectuals, some of the greatest schools in the world, the kindest most generous people in the world, it is a powerful and often abused/taken-for-granted ally, and even as people from Europe, Japan etc. sneer at her derisively, they can not stop wanting to be like her.
Of course as a Canadian, i (rightfully :D) believe i live in the greatest country in the world - not unlike Americans. At the same time, as a Canadian, I don’t have the luxury of behaving as tho i come from the greatest country in the world - a luxury that Americans have in spades (no racial slur intended). -
“Let’s all get together for a beer (YB - you only get rootbeer - you’re too young for beer - unless we meet on FinsterniS’ turf), and we’ll have a nacho fight. First one to get salsa in someone else’s eye loses…”
The only way to solve this argument is through a game of Axis and Allies! Beer, nachos, drugs, pretzels, drugs, all the good stuff included. I think that this permits a good war: F_alk, FinsterniS -> Axis, Horten, cystic crypt, yourbuttocks -> Allied)
“Well, HFW does have a point. America has set itself up quite nicely to be criticized by Europeans etc. if only because of it’s immense power, economic structure, military machine, and apparent indifference to the world that it exercises so much influence…”
You darn tooting, Crystic Crypt! :D I can agree. The Japanese might make the best cars, the Germans the best beers, the French the best perfumes, the Italians the best pizza, the Canadians the best hockey team, but Americans make the best dreams.
American TV, film, and music dominates the world’s mass markets. While American-made cars, steel, tools, electronics, and other goods struggle against foreign competition, Superman, Yoda, and Mickey Mouse are cleaning up. American pop culture is just about the biggest export the US produces. For better or for worse it’s literally everywhere.
Every backroads world traveler has a favorite story about being lost, hungry and hundreds of miles off the edge of any map when a friendly native suddenly appears to lead him to a hut. Crawling inside, the traveler finds himself staring at a rerun of Simpsons on a generator-powered TV and a poster of Michael Jordan on the mud wall. It’s scary.
PS: Canada rules 8)
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Oh and Fisternis, what gives you the right to ban empirical evidence from this conversation?
No “right”, it was just “off-subject”… just read again my first post here. I just want you to stop claiming god is “rational”, it is purely emotional and always has been a problem in science and politic.
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“yuuuhuuu Horten,”
I’m listening :)“where did i say that you fit my prejudice?”
I’m American, and you said people like Yb are the reason why you have a prejudice of Americans…I was just wondering if I came accross those lines.“where did i say i hated all americans?
it’s not that hard and doesn’t hurt to read carefully, i promise :)”Yes it is damn it!!! I didn’t say you hate all Americans, but you are definantly prejudice. Come on! You said “Americans” say things in a fashion, the same thing any other nationality would say, but an American happens to bring more “ill feelings.” A lot of people believe that about Americans, but in reality it is just a false prejudice.
“And what do youe man by your last sentence?
The world is in a pretty bad condition, and needs cooperation by all humans and states, if that (problems of global scale) is what you are refering to.”
“I just can’t hate a race of people because there might be a lot of assholes. But if I am speaking to the intellectuals of Europe, this planet is in a far more worse position than we can ever dream of.”Yes and no. One point is that one cannot condemn a whole race. I condemned the many “intellectuals” who are European, and their leftist ideas so many liberals strive to follow. If their ideas and beliefs are the best this world has, then we are in some major trouble.
I hope when I have a son or he has a son, that we can be citizens of Earth, not a particular nation. But that won’t happen, so the best we can do is stop some of the hate while we’re at it, and I’m calling for the end of the double standard against Americans.
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I condemned the many “intellectuals” who are European, and their leftist ideas so many liberals strive to follow.
I will take that as a compliment
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“yuuuhuuu Horten,”
I’m listening :)“where did i say that you fit my prejudice?”
I’m American, and you said people like Yb are the reason why you have a prejudice of Americans…I was just wondering if I came accross those lines.sometimes you did, sometimes you didn’t. Therefor i have to assume that you have opinions of your own, made up by your own thinking.
That excludes you from most of my prejudices :)“where did i say i hated all americans?
it’s not that hard and doesn’t hurt to read carefully, i promise :)”Yes it is damn it!!! I didn’t say you hate all Americans, but you are definantly prejudice. Come on! You said “Americans” say things in a fashion, the same thing any other nationality would say, but an American happens to bring more “ill feelings.” A lot of people believe that about Americans, but in reality it is just a false prejudice.
True, in the last post you didn’t say i hated all americans (i don’t want to check all of the others, as soccer goes on :) ). But, just for the double standrards, you talk of “europeans”, “european leftists” etc etc. in pretty much the same way, and never having visited europe, all your judgement is nothing but a prejudice itself. And in europe the liberals are not following the the leftists ideas, but the ideas of total economic dictatorship over everything in life and society. That’s not a part of european culture, still they want to implement it, and are far too successful for my concern.
Economy is for the ppl, not ppl are for the econmy. The old paradigm that was the other way round has to change. The tyranny of economy has to stop!
“And what do youe man by your last sentence?
The world is in a pretty bad condition, and needs cooperation by all humans and states, if that (problems of global scale) is what you are refering to.”
“I just can’t hate a race of people because there might be a lot of assholes. But if I am speaking to the intellectuals of Europe, this planet is in a far more worse position than we can ever dream of.”Yes and no. One point is that one cannot condemn a whole race. I condemned the many “intellectuals” who are European, and their leftist ideas so many liberals strive to follow. If their ideas and beliefs are the best this world has, then we are in some major trouble.
I hope when I have a son or he has a son, that we can be citizens of Earth, not a particular nation. But that won’t happen, so the best we can do is stop some of the hate while we’re at it, and I’m calling for the end of the double standard against Americans.
The first paragraphs i have replied to above.
The last is something i can only agree wholeheartedly (the second time i guess :) ) …. and of course i call for the end of double standards against europeans!
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